Why Prevent Suicide? Here Are My Reasons.

 “If someone’s life is so awful that they want to die by suicide, why stop them?”

I am frequently asked some variation of this question, even by mental health professionals. Once, a therapist told me about a client of hers with schizophrenia. “He is miserable, and he will always have schizophrenia. I think letting him kill himself is humane.”

I am passionate about suicide prevention. My stance often draws the ire of people who think that people should have the right to end their own life without interference by well-meaning others.

To my mind, there are many reasons to stop someone from suicide. (I am not, by the way, including “death with dignity” or “hastened death.” That’s grist for another discussion.)

Before going into those reasons, I want to make clear that I don’t take intervention lightly. I don’t call the police if someone discloses suicidal thoughts. I don’t think people should be involuntarily committed to a hospital except in the most extreme circumstances, like if someone has a gun in their car and tells me they are going to shoot themselves when they leave my office, without any desire or will to come up with an alternative (like, say, having someone hold on to their gun for them). I consider myself to be a therapist who doesn’t panic about suicide. 

But I do believe that therapists should never give up helping a suicidal person to stay alive. The most important reason to prevent suicide is that suicidal crises, though formidable and painful, almost always are temporary. Even if the person continues thinking about suicide, the intense suicidal intent usually subsides. Consider that 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. That number is very revealing. Even among people who wanted to die so strongly that they tried to end their life, most ultimately chose to live.

As long as a person is alive, things can change for the better. Situations change. Even if their external situation is unchangeable, they may discover things that make their life worth living. There is always the possibility that they may find ways to cope. Or they may come to appreciate different things in life. They may even find a purpose in life that gives their loss or trauma meaning.

Kevin Hines is a suicide prevention advocate who, years ago, jumped off of the Golden Gate Bridge, the site in the U.S. with the most suicides every year. Death is almost certain when one jumps from the bridge. More than 1,500 people are known to have jumped to their death, and only 30 or so are known to have survived. So when Kevin jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge, he was absolutely intent on dying. And yet, even with that intention, the moment he jumped off the bridge, he instantly regretted his decision.

His experience is one of many (including my own story) that illustrates that the wish to die is fluid. It comes and goes to varying degrees. A great many people who are saved from suicide are thankful, sooner or later, to be alive.

Another important reason to prevent suicide is because, proponents of rational suicide notwithstanding, in almost all cases suicide is decidedly irrational. Research consistently indicates that 90% of people who die by suicide had a diagnosable mental illness at the time of their death. Mental illness distorts thinking. What is bad can seem good, and vice versa. Often, very often, when a person’s mental health improves, the wish to die goes away.

Some people contest the high estimates of mental illness in suicide. Even if we presume the 90% figure is correct, not everyone who dies by suicide has a mental illness. Other things besides mental illness can also distort one’s thinking, such as substance use, sleep deprivation, and trauma.

When people address these issues, they often join the legions who seriously considered suicide or made an attempt, and who many years later live to tell about it.

Revised on May 30, 2017, this post was originally titled “If Someone’s Life is So Awful that They Want to Die, Why Stop Them?”

© Copyright 2013; 2017 Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW. All rights Reserved. Written For: Speaking of Suicide. Photos purchased from Fotolia.com

 

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  1. mimi says:

    I never in my life would have contemplated suicide. Now that is all I think of but I am afraid to go to hell..I am suffering so bad every day 6 months now..with undiagnosed illness which I have nerve damage on the inside of my body. Can’t barely swallow or eat..can’t digest and go to the bathroom. Spine and pelvis are in so much pain..meds don’t work and I sleep 1 hour a night. I can’t take it anymore. My body is shutting down but heart and brain still working well so I’m suffering for a long time. I just want to end it. But I’m a christian and believe in hell..don’t want my situation to be worse than the hell I’m in now. Also afraid of surviving attempt screwed up even more. I don’t want to die. I just don’t want to live like this anymore. Anyone else with a chronic painfull illness?

    • Jomar says:

      Hello mimi, an odd circumstance led me here. Let me start off by stating that while I don’t understand the physical battle that you encounter on a daily basis, I do however understand your mind state and how you are feeling right now. Hopelessness. Hopelessness is a very simple and somewhat long word but it describes and represents a myriad of underlying feelings and emotions. I myself have attempted it twice, been institutionalized for mental illness as well as take daily medication to help deal with depression. It’s a daily battle for me, one that I feel sometimes that I’m gonna lose one day. Right now in my life im very stagnant. I’m 34 years old, living with my mother, with no job, divorced, no car, overweight, and also having communication issues with my daughter who for lack of better words really doesn’t wish to hangout with me or even really talk to me. This is a lot for me to deal with and while the reasons I’m in the position I’m in are my fault, I acknowledge it but it doesn’t make it any easier. I have good days and I have bad days dealing with the emotional struggles of my reality. I don’t know what is important to you in life other than yourself and the belief in God, but whatever it is I hope and pray you hold on to that feeling. Me, about a week ago I started working out and eating better. I know what you’re probably thinking “how is this gonna help me?” The answer is this and that’s control. It’s an important thing in people’s lives and that’s the ability to control certain aspects of one’s life. For me it’s my weight I have complete control over whether I decide to exercise and eat right. It’s a decision that I can make every day and control. This also creates something else for me and that’s giving me something to look forward to on a daily basis. I say all that to ask you to try and find something even if it’s small to look forward to and try to find something that is within your own control and focus on it. Maybe just maybe you can begin to understand how important you probably are and that while the worst situation you can be in is only a hurdle or a roadblock keeping you from your higher and greatest achievements. God bless you Mimi I wish all the best and thank you for taking the time to read this

  2. Anonymous says:

    If I’m determined to commit suicide why does society feel determined to change my mind. If they want to ask me about it, that’s fine, but if they don’t like my answer society wants to save me from myself, even lock me up and control me in an attempt to change my mind about what I’m considering, I suppose to the point of jailing me forever, or at least until I figure out that if I tell “them” what they want to hear, I’ll be freed to do what I want. Does this fall under anything that resembles human rights?

  3. Anonymous says:

    I’m a middle aged male. I’m not physically ill, I’m not mentally ill. I’m a religious person, a Baptist, and have been my entire life. I’ve retired from the US Navy, a career I throughly enjoyed. I’ve also had a very successful second career where I’m currently working. There’s an old joke and a song which says “Everyone wants to go to heaven but just not today”. Well, I’ve decided I want to go today. Obviously everyone’ going to die and if heaven is waiting why not go. I wonder why I haven’t thought about this before, and furthermore why am I thinking about it now. It seems perfectly logical to me and I do wish I’d thought about it before now. I’m ready and I’ve always been ready, so what’s the excuse for putting death off. I can’t think of a single reason. Why would anyone want to grow old, possibly sick and or in pain. Society has an ingrained idea that “they” should keep me alive against my will. The law really gums this idea up, and I honestly don’t understand why. It’s my life, I own it, God gave it to me, why must a person wait to go see god. I know I can do this anytime I want but why must the law punish my estate and I’m not referring to insurance.

    [This comment was edited to abide by the Comments Policy. — SF]

  4. Nieman says:

    Why do you wish to stop suicides?

    Are you doing it for the person who wishes to die or is it for you and you?
    Do you even care about the person who is suffering so much that they wish to end the pain?

    You have no right to force someone to endure an awful life.

  5. Dion says:

    Thanks. Now, explain how I keep on living in a City/ State/ Country I absolutely hate? And how do I live in a world where I despise almost everyone I meet, and who I would rather see die than say two words to? Oh, and work 30 hours with more people I’d rather see dead, for a company I would rather go out of business? Oh, and when I’m unemployed please tell me how to deal with a job agency that humiliates me, calls me a liar and constantly threatens to cut off my meagre benefit? I have no friends because I don’t want them. I don’t want to talk to a therapist or take a drug to make me want to live because that would make me a totally different person and the idea of that fills me with even greater self-loathing. My drug of choice is alcohol. I read a depressing thing today. It is difficult to kill yourself with booze. I usually manage a bottle a night. I suppose I will have to up the effort. To keep me living in this damnable world is cruel. I pray to Satan for incurable cancer.

  6. Tamzen says:

    I tried to commit suicide at 16 and again in my 20’s and I greatly regret not succeeding. At 50 my life is a dumpster fire, nothing I do makes me feel better, years of therapy have left me feeling worse, anti-depressants make me even more suicidal and the only reason I am alive is to be used up by the people who supposedly love me. By your estimation, I should remain alive and miserable so I can continue to be taken advantage of, so my whole being becomes about saving someone else from grief. OK. If you want to make sure that a few people avoid some grief – great – but don’t fool yourself. You aren’t on my side, you are on theirs. You aren’t looking out for the suicidal person, you are looking out for yourself.

    • anon says:

      I agree that many of those who force others to stay in a life of misery are doing so for quite selfish reason but I have to ask. Are you at all surprised that people are selfish?

      • lukas green says:

        I am not surprised that any human is selfish, what does surprise me is that someone whom wants to end their own suffering is bullied into staying alive because other selfish people say they are being selfish if they commit suicide… which form of selfishness is worse and for whom exactly?

    • Matt says:

      Tamzen, your comment really got to me. I feel compelled to send a message to you but I don’t really know what to say. I guess in some way I empathize with you. I feel like I am being used by “friends” for what I can do for them or give them. Not for my company. Sometimes it feels like it’s me and my wife against the whole world. Anyway I would like to tell you I don’t want anything from you except to talk. Share whatever you want about yourself. Or how you feel right now. I’d really like to know.

    • Chad N says:

      I’m in the same boat as Matt, I empathize. I don’t really keep friends anymore but I feel the people I do interact with are only looking to use/hurt me. To be candid, since my ex left me for someone with more money (my best guess) I even find myself making sure I spend enough money on my brother and parents when I see them. They’ve never indicated it’s a requirement but it’s just how I see people now. I would listen as well if it would help you but should you be wanting help I’m not sure I would be a good option beyond assuring you that others have similar life experiences. As for the people trying to prevent your death, while I see their reasons as suspect I like to think they aren’t malicious. They just don’t know any better and I assume either don’t put in the effort or simply are not capable of understanding the reasoning. My approach is to not try to get them to understand (if someone does care for me I wouldn’t want them to be able to relate to how I feel) but rather to help assure them my decision is my own and not temporary or rash so hopefully they will blame themselves less should I succeed. I don’t know if any of that will help you when dealing with the discrimination but I thought I would share if for no other reason than to hopefully convey that you are not alone. I hope you can find the peace you seek, whatever form that may take for you.

  7. Miles Miles says:

    We don’t even know if life is actually worth it or not. It’s just a value. So you are essentially enforcing a value onto someone based off of feelings. Rather than caring about quality of life you people tend to care about quantity. Why do you just assume everyone is better off of alive? What about when you “save” prevent someone from dying and they constantly and considerably regret living for the rest of their life. Is that still a win? Is your judgment just superior to their own?

  8. Anonymous says:

    So your only reason is that the wish to die is fluid? Why does that make it better to live? I can’t come up with any reason why life is valuable, regardless of how decisive someone is about their desire to live or not to live.

    Take Kevin Hines. He jumped off the bridge and changed his mind in the air. Why does his newfound desire to live mean that he should live, or that it would be better for him to be alive? What difference does it make if someone wants to live or if things get better or not? I don’t see how the whim of an individual at any given moment lends itself to a value judgement about living.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Anonymous,

      With respect, I’m confused by your logic on a number of counts. My confusion is best illustrated by making a minor change to your wording, as follows:

      “Why does a newfound desire to die mean that he should die, or that it would be better for him to be die? What difference does it make if someone wants to die or if things get better or not? I don’t see how the whim of an individual at any given moment lends itself to a value judgement about dying.”

      See the problem here? If it is meaningless to want to live, then it works in the other direction, too.

      Maybe you’d say the distinction is that the wish to live, in the case of Kevin Hines’ example, came suddenly. I suppose you are arguing (though I’m not sure) that an impulsive or “newfound desire” to live is meaningless, because it’s “the whim of an individual.”

      However, if that is your argument, the logic still leads in favor of living, because in the entirety of one’s life, the desire to live almost always has been present more minutes and hours than a desire to die.

      I don’t think wanting to live is meaningless, though. The fact of the matter is that the overriding forces in nature, when it comes to living beings, human or otherwise, is one of generativity and survival. This doesn’t mean that every human or other animal needs to procreate or to honor the fragility of their life. But it does mean that the forces of life are on the side of health. If this were not the case, people would choose to die even when happy and healthy. So far as I know, most – if not all – do not.

      Have I understood your argument correctly?

      I hope that life changes for you and you are able to feel better it — even to find value in it. I know it’s terribly painful not to be able to do so.

      • Chad N says:

        I believe the intent was more along the lines of: Why does one person (Kevin Hines) changing their mind about suicide mean anything to whether others should be allowed to decide they want suicide? That is just my interpretation but I admit I am reading between the lines a lot. Hopefully the original poster will clarify.

      • mic says:

        I think what anonymous means is that the anti-suicide campaign places an inordinate amount of weight on fleeting feelings of wanting to live. So that even if a person spends most of their time wanting to die but that is interrupted for even a brief spell of time; the temporary will to live is considered to outweigh the strong desire to die.

        People who are in favour of preventing suicide at all costs would usually aver that it’s the fleeting will to live that someone might experience mid-air whilst falling from the Golden Gate bridge is what reflects their ‘true’ desires after having spent most of their time with false thoughts generated by their ‘depression’ which, no matter how much time their thoughts are taken up with the desire to die, is never accepted as being representative of the person’s ‘true thoughts’.

        And of course, even if the person never experiences any relief from the persistent desire to die, people advocating suicide prevention will be unfazed in their contention that the desire to die doesn’t represent the person’s true thoughts.

        So I think that what anonymous is saying is that the weighting that you are giving to the temporary remission of the compulsion to die is arbitrary. I know in my own case, that it’s the rational and analytical part of my mind that drives the desire to die (which isn’t really characterised by periods of emotional distress or volatility); and it’s the fearful primitive instinct that always carries the day and keeps me living. People don’t commit suicide without having a compelling reason for doing it; because every biological instinct is pulling them back from the precipice. It’s not the kind of thing that one does on a whim, and their mindset in most cases would have to be strongly weighted in favour of dying for them to get to that point.

        In my case, and in many cases, the desire to die has taken up most of my life and I’ve never had any real change of heart on that subject. But the evidence would never be sufficient for pro-lifers to respect that as reflective of my genuine desires, no matter how lucidly and cogently I argue my case.

      • Miles says:

        “See the problem here? If it is meaningless to want to live, then it works in the other direction, too.”

        You missed the point entirely. The difference is the OP wants to leave the descion up to the individual. You on the other hand want to enforce a value-that life is always worth living onto others with the sole justification of feelings .

        “However, if that is your argument, the logic still leads in favor of living, because in the entirety of one’s life, the desire to live almost always has been present more minutes and hours than a desire to die.”

        Even if someone really wants to die survival instinct still exists or a biological desire to live, which you have to overpower in order to die by suicide. – the strongest instinct does not go away. That is like saying becuase someone wants to lose weight they have no desire to eat anything. It does not actually make any sense.

  9. David Crichton says:

    But there is a huge variation
    I have been thinking about suicide for 6 years almost every waking minute. It was following being scammed by a financial advisor and lost me most of my savings
    Since then I have hd loads of therapy and got worse with serious side effects from medication which were life threatening and most recently being nearly killed when I fell from my bike into the path of fast car and then being prosecuted for being suicidal. And now my lovely wife says she’s had enough of my misery and wants to separate.
    I have got progressively worse and see that my suicide will save her the shame of separating from a disabled husband of 35 years marriage and also the numerous friends and church people who try and help, but make me feel worse as it shames me; this I find shameful and humiliating as a previously independant active man

  10. lukas green says:

    Since my last attempt 2 years ago, my feelings have not got better, I just feel that I am being tortured by being forced to live and that I have to keep proving my mental capacity despite my never ceasing explanations of how I suffer physically and mentally night and day with little to no relief most of the time. Can I even get reassurance that when I die of natural causes (not by my own doing) I will be allowed to remain dead? It runs through my mind that I may be kept alive for as long I can be revived… for me a true nightmare. There has to be a way out.

    • mic says:

      Lukas – the same fear keeps me in terror, because it is foreseeable that technological advances could be made that could greatly extend the average human lifespan, and it would be considered to be prima facie evidence of incompetence to refuse to have your lifespan extended indefinitely. Especially if you have a history of mental illness, or of suicidal ideation. Added to that all the talk about ‘zero suicide’ targets, and more technological advances in surveillance technology, and I am worried that it will eventually become impossible to commit suicide.

      I’m so sorry for what you are going through. I’m not suffering as badly as you are, it seems, but the anguish of being trapped by a society that will never allow my philosophical views to be validated is something that preys on my mind constantly. Conversely, if I knew that I had the inalienable right to an end to my life at a time of my choosing, I would be able to think of ways to improve my life, rather than constantly worrying about trying to hatch an escape route. The ones who say that there should be no way out of this are the ones who are turning life into imprisonment, whereas it would otherwise be much more tolerable.

  11. Anonymous says:

    I can’t cope with the decisions I’ve made, why do I make the wrong decisions?

    • Chad N says:

      If you will allow me to answer your question with a question. Is it possible that the decisions you are regretting are only wrong in hindsight? If so then the answer would be you made the wrong decision at the time because it was what you felt best with the information you had available. If however you are doing making a choice that you know is wrong at the time then more information would be needed to allow us to guess but only you can truly know why.

  12. Amey says:

    Nice blog on suicide prevention.

  13. Zoe Tartz says:

    Dr. Freedenthal, first off, thank you for starting an interesting discussion and bringing up some valid points. I want to reemphasize a great point that you made. You stated that, “90% of people who die by suicide had a diagnosable mental illness.” I think this is very important point when talking about why we should stop people from committing suicide. This is because it emphasizes that suicidal patients may lack the ability to make a sound decision, especially an irreversible decision such as death. Decisional capacity is defined as the ability of a patient to make their own health care decisions, based on many factors that physicians use to judge. One could argue that someone with a diagnosable mental illness might not appreciate or understand the severity of their actions. For example, in the study Anxiety Evokes Hypofrontality and Disrupts Rule-Relevant Encoding by Dorsomedial Prefrontal Cortex Neurons, data indicates that anxiety has an intricately selective effect on neuronal activity that supports decision making and shows that anxiety often leads to bad decision-making. So rather than allowing people to make such a permanent decision, possibly without fully understanding its weight, I think we should focus our efforts towards controlling and directing their mental health. Another great point you bring up is that 90% of people who survived a suicide attempt did not die from suicide. This leads me to believe that suicidal intentions, although powerful and painful, are passing. I would be interested in knowing whether there was a correlation between improved mental state or well controlled mental illness with decreased desire to end one’s own life.

    • Abe Bin says:

      Zoe Tartz, I’ve been following this thread since a colleague at my university forwarded specifically the comment section to me over a month ago. I’d like to make a few observations about the points you raise.

      You repeated Stacey’s claim that 90% of people who die by suicide had a diagnosable mental illness. I feel compelled to point out that not everyone who dies by suicide is rightly categorized as a suicide nor, among those categorized as suicide (putting aside inevitable errors of categorization), are there always diagnoses of mental illness. And the diagnosis of mental illness itself has been for decades called into question by leading scientists, physicians, and even psychiatrists. So the accuracy of the 90% figure seems questionable at least.

      You also said the above questionable statistic MAY mean suicidal patients lack the ability to make “a sound decision.” For one thing, I don’t see hard evidence, your mention of the Park, Wood, Bondi, et al, study notwithstanding, that the suicidal are not able to make “sound decisions.” Rather, I see diagnoses and terms defined by observers instead of biomolecular science.

      I also question what constitutes a “sound decision.” Many day to day decisions are made in the context of great anxiety–such as the survival-affecting decisions the poor must make or the decision a woman considering an abortion must make or therapeutic decisions patients must make. Someone in this thread even pointed out that many patients whose decision-making is distorted by serious medical news still retain the legal power to decide whether to accept treatment or not even when doctors are fairly certain not seeking treatment will lead to a far worse prognosis. Culturally and legally we generally don’t inhibit people’s personal freedoms because we disagree with their decisions or believe that their anxiety impedes their ability to make “sound decisions.” For many of us, such a freedom (to make decisions we might regret for the rest of our lives or even decisions that will likely shorten our lives) is at the crux of freedom.

      Others in this thread have argued, rightly, that there is no scientific justification for the term “mental illness.” Illness is a medical term and there should be well characterized cause-effect pathology to justify its use. There is to date no published medical test for or characterization of “mental illness.” This term is decided upon by observers–something antithetical to biomedicine and the sciences.

      Thank you for making clear your motivation: “I think we should focus our (whose?) efforts towards CONTROLLING and DIRECTING their mental health.” This was an exceptionally chilling sentence to me. People aren’t others’ property. It’s very frightening that one group of people should take it upon themselves to control and direct another group of people under the justification of providing for the second group’s benefit. History teaches us that is a dangerously slippery slope. I’d argue instead that we should focus our efforts on building the kind of society global epidemiological research tells us is associated with greater prevalence of the feeling of contentedness. When people can’t afford to survive, face homelessness and harassment by law enforcement for the simple “crime” of being poor, endure all kinds of physical and emotional violence without reliable legal or social recourse, anxiety and, when these problems are chronic or combined with advancing age, chronic health problems, community abandonment, and the loss of autonomy, even suicidal thoughts are more likely. If we can’t help such people–really help them by getting them safe and healthy homes, jobs that get them out of poverty or that build futures they want, relief from physical and emotional pain, legal protections, and sufficient companionship and affection, we have no right, I don’t think, to consign them to keep living sub-human lives.

      I also question the second 90% statistic. 90% of all people who were once suicidal are reliably followed up with? For how long? How are researchers certain they’ve included everyone who was once suicidal but then didn’t commit suicide? What about reporting bias? There’s a lot of literature that shows people feel pressured to say they feel well even when they continue to suffer significant discrimination and other major social negatives.

      You also say “this leads me to believe that suicidal ideations … are passing.” Again, for the reasons given just above, I doubt the accuracy of this judgment. As others in this thread have offered, surviving but not choosing to commit suicide doesn’t mean someone judges the quality of their life to be fair or that they are not still thinking of suicide, even when they report otherwise (Krieger, Harvard).

      I’m a big advocate of therapy. But when it evolves into people controlling and directing others’ bodies and lives, that’s no longer freedom. It’s very, very frightening especially since this controlling and directing often means physical restraint, forced drugs and the long-term painful consequences of many of these drugs, lost legal freedoms, and unfortunately being the possible victim of some unethical mental health practitioners. I think that model would deter many people from talking about or seeking help for problems.

      Sorry for a long-winded comment, but there are just far too many torturous examples in human history of control and direction begun with good intentions which nonetheless turn out very badly for those who’re supposed to be protected. A lot of suicidal ideation could be abated if people had more of the things we humans seem to need to be cognitively healthy. I vote for changing society, making it gentler and more supportive, not for controlling others. And certainly not for controlling others WHILE our culture is as caustic as it currently often is.

      • Jim says:

        I have been following this thread for quite some time now and this is perhaps one of the best responses yet. Abe, you very clearly defined the problem. With a suicide rate that is continually increasing and the amount of people on record suffering from major depression, I see no end in sight unless we change the way we are living.

    • Chad N says:

      Zoe,

      I am actually going to point out my issue with your premise by agreeing with it. Expanding on your fundamental claim that a person with a mental illness lacks the right to decide for themselves I suggest that any person that can be shown to have any mental condition definable as abnormal have all their decision making rights revoked because their “Decisional capacity” is in question. After all every decision made effects the rest of ones life, including their death, and decisions are by the nature of time just as irreversible as death is unavoidable. I am of course assuming the subject making said decision is neither a time traveler nor immortal. The issue being of course that there is no such thing as normal outside of mathematics and everyone can thus be seen as having some degree of abnormality and therefore no right to make a decision in their own life. An exaggeration of your blanket statement for effect I admit but I hope it highlights the issue with trying to oversimplify such a complex topic let alone claiming the authority of “controlling and directing” another mind irregardless of if they want you to.

  14. mamoun says:

    first answer me which is better for us life or death ? then i will answer you which is better to prevent or allow suicide ?

  15. mamoun says:

    for a long time now i was following the article why prevent suicide ? the answers are widely different even i shared my own opinion before but i concluded at the end that there is no definite answer to this article unless we answer the question which one is better death or life ? we know life but we do not know death ,so let us first answer what is death and what is there after ? depending on this answer we can decide which is better for us and hence to stop or to allow suicide

  16. Den says:

    I can’t shake off the feeling that a person who “saves” another from suicide surely must then have some kind of responsibility to make the said person’s life worth living. Isn’t it irresponsible to deny somebody their right to die when you can’t offer them any more than “well most people feel better eventually”.

    I have “saved” four people from suicide in my role as a Mental Health practitioner. One of those people did indeed thank me several years later, and went on to live a ‘normal’ life. The other three, however, did not. I saw them over several years (almost 12) come in and out of the medical unit I worked in.
    The statistics may indeed claim that 90% of people who attempt suicide do not eventually die from suicide, the implication being that they do not wish, or do not attempt, to do it again. I can categorically say that the three people I prevented from taking their lives did indeed want to attempt it again, and one actually did, only, because they were now recognised as being suicidal they had little opportunity to do it effectively.

    These three people were never anything other than thoroughly despondent, and one actually told me that I had no right to save him if I didn’t know how to make him want to live. I couldn’t defend myself, I completely agreed with him.

    As far as I know, I saved one person’s life, yay, good for me, but I also imposed life on three other people who did not want it, and who, for the 12 years or so I knew them, would have given it up in a heartbeat if they had had the opportunity. I still feel responsible for their misery to this day.

    • Chad N says:

      Den,

      I for one appreciate that you have considered this question. Most don’t and I believe that is a result of who they are “saving” the life for. If it is for the benefit of the one being saved then yes I believe you would have to at least believe you can help their condition. I think most people don’t want to prevent a suicide for that reason. More often it seems objection is based externally to the object of the action. Sometimes their deity supposedly requires it lest they be deemed bad for not trying. Sometimes their own fear of death simply makes them uncomfortable when confronted by it. Sometimes their occupation financially rewards the act, see “job security”. Whatever the reason, I rarely see any remorse or consideration for the effect on the other party. They seem to think their work is done by forcing their will upon another and when confronted with the aftermath I typically hear what amounts to blaming the other parties for their own misery i.e. “They just didn’t do ‘x’ enough.” I’m sure most people can fill in that x from memory.

      I don’t expect it will help but I do want to say that if someone were to “save” me I would prefer they be like you. Just the fact that they struggled with the question you asked would help me forgive them if I didn’t improve on my own.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Den,

      Thanks for sharing here. I’m intrigued by the points you raised and have some thoughts:

      If 1 out of 4 people you “saved” is glad to be alive and living what you call a normal life, then why isn’t that enough? The other 3 always have the option to die by suicide later. In contrast, the decision to die would have been irrevocable for the person whose life you saved.

      I also wonder if you believe that physicians, nurses, and other helpers are responsible for the care of people whose lives they save from heart attack, stroke, and the like. If no, why not? If so, why?

      Just some food for thought!

      • Mia Cooper says:

        I think Den made an excellent point that this article is saying “people are eventually going to stop thinking of suicide”. What of the pain they have to suffer till? You may think it is not your responsibility, then what makes your right to speak of suicide and people with suicidal thoughts that way.

        Den did not have a choice as to not save the patient, but what of the 3/4 people who survived. Stacey, you are already discarding the opinion of those people, already treating them as dead, what gives you the right to say “they can kill themselves at later date”?

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Mia,

        Thanks for your comments. I appreciate the opportunity to see where I didn’t communicate myself clearly, and to try to be clearer.

        It’s actually not my belief that everybody who is suicidal will stop thinking of suicide. To me, the goal is not necessarily to end suicidal thoughts. If that happens, great! But it doesn’t always happen, in which case the goal is for people to craft a life worth living and relate differently to their suicidal thoughts – to not see them as an edict but, instead, as data about their pain and about changes that need to happen in their life. Or, even, to see them just as a cognitive habit formed from years of thinking of suicide and to observe the thoughts as an event that happens; this is all consistent with mindfulness-based cognitive therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy.

        About the 3 in 4 people who survived when Den intervened and wished they hadn’t: I did not communicate myself well. My point is that death is irreversible; delaying suicide is not irreversible. It’s a fact of life that people can die by suicide later. It’s also a fact that many people – sadly, not all, but many – do change their lives, want to live, and appreciate being alive. The latter fact is one of many that keeps me going in the work that I do.

      • Chad N says:

        Dr. Freedenthal,

        I have several items to respond to and will endeavor to do so in a clear manor:

        1) I find your assertion that 1 out of 4 constitutes “enough” somewhat intriguing myself. I was curious if I could find anything that might indicate the raw effectiveness of a placebo. What I came up with was from an IBS study which stated “an open-label placebo still produced a placebo effect and was about 20% more effective than no treatment” published in the “Harvard Health Letter” on April, 2012. This was from a “small study” per the same article but I expect more than 4 people. So the interventions being discussed produced a reported positive effect 25% of the time and if the study I found is to be believed a known placebo could reasonably be expected to produce a positive effect 20% of the time. However the placebo has no negatives while the intervention does in the form of forced additional medical treatment, social shaming and worst of all the decreased access to their chosen means of treatment. It is my understanding that if a treatment can’t be differentiated from placebo and bears with it significant negative side effects then the medical field typically doesn’t use it. I am not saying we need a Futurama style booth but I do feel 25% isn’t enough unless society can remove those side effect. They have done this in other countries as I am sure you know.

        2) Yes, medical individuals that “save a person from heart attack, stroke, and the like” are responsible for the care of that person after the condition. I say this because if for example person is treated for a heart attack and immediately after stopping the arrhythmia it is determined the person can’t pay so they discharge the patient then the hospital can face legal action should the person have an immediate reoccurrence or other complication. Furthermore, the heart attack patient can refuse treatment and die if they want but that right is taken away from the suicidal person out of hand. The issue, I believe, is that heart attacks are short term, depression/suicidal ideation is not and can in fact be permanent. I would assert that by this president to provide for equal rights either a medical practitioner that intervenes in a suicide has an obligation to alleviate the condition or the patient has the right to decide to die just like the heart attack patient.

        3) I honestly believe fixing the problem should be the only goal. If that be via some treatment then great, if mindfulness helps then great as well. My issue is with acceptance/commitment therapy as if there is no ability to refuse I see no logical difference to Stockholm syndrome beyond the reported intentions of the captor. Yes, people can be mentally broken and made to accept a horrific life but that doesn’t mean they should have to. If they have no means provided to exert their will then they are at best indentured servants to their caregivers. At worst I dare not say.

        4) This is in response to “death is irreversible; delaying suicide is not irreversible.” First, death is unavoidable so why not let people chose how they meet it. Second, delaying suicide can very well be irreversible. The current situation allows a persons right to be taken from them if they are deemed a danger to themselves. They can be put on suicide watches or even committed. Lets not forget the public shaming with people calling them everything from selfish to sinners to weak. To be blunt, I have sought little treatment for my condition because of these very reasons. I don’t want to go into the details but I identified that I had an issue in 5th grade and I truly believe if we lived in a country where I could have sought treatment without risking liberty and my life would have been much better even if I still decided I wanted to end it. Unfortunately we live in a society where delaying suicide can have consequences worse than death. In my humble opinion, advocating for the right to die is truly helping prevent senseless suicides by removing the stigma of the discussion. This board is good but I would prefer to not have to hide in the anonymity of the internet.

        With respect,

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Hi Chad,

        Thanks for your thoughtful, respectful comments. Apologies for my delay in posting it; I wanted to wait until I had adequate time to respond. So, here I would like to respond to your different points, using the numbering you used:

        1. I think you’re mixing apples and oranges by comparing the 25% “success” rate of 1 in 4 people who survive a suicide attempt getting better to a 20% improvement with a placebo pill for irritable bowel syndrome. Twenty percent improvement isn’t about survival; it’s about symptom reduction. In the original commenter’s case, she said she intervened with 4 people who were going to die by suicide, and one of those went on to live a “normal” life.

        2. I was referring to the original commenter’s having said that she feels responsible for the 3 people who regret being alive. That’s why I brought up people who have a heart attack or stroke. Medical professionals who treat someone for heart attack or stroke are not responsible if, through no fault of the professional, the person survives with an enduring disability such as paralysis.

        3. I think you might have a misunderstanding of acceptance and commitment therapy. It is not about accepting horrendous living conditions. It is about accepting the thoughts and feelings we experience while trying to create a life of meaning and value.

        4. I struggle with mental health professionals’ having the ability – not even ability, but obligation – to intervene when someone is at imminent risk for suicide. I recognize that it deters many people, such as you, from seeking help because they fear being committed against their will. My post In Defense of Suicide Prevention discusses my ambivalence about the tension that exists between safety and trust.

        Thank you again for contributing to the discussion, Chad!

      • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

        Heart attacks, strokes, and other physical ailments are not comparable to suicide.

        Generally, people want to survive heart attacks, strokes, and other emergencies.

        When someone wants to die, then the condition is life. Preventing someone’s death by suicide is the same as withholding treatment for another condition (that isn’t hopeless). You would be responsible for their life if you neglected providing care, because your neglect was not what they wanted. You would not be responsible for their life if you provided adequate care.

        Suicide is a traumatic event, and is not as easy as ‘well, he can kill himself later’. That really misses the point, and turns 3/4 people who want to die into fodder.

        It takes a lot to overcome our biological survival instinct, even if life is awful. Even when it is overcome, it is difficult to find information for and carry out reliable suicide.

        It is cruel that a nation would decriminalise suicide, but would prevent access to suicide methods (both information, and reliable and peaceful medications or equipment).

        It is hypocritical that some nations carry out involuntary executions, but will not carry out voluntary euthanasia. (In this case, the person who wants to die has to commit a capital crime before he has the aid of the people in his death.)

        The failure rate from most methods of suicide is surprisingly high, and not encouraging for people in countries without access to firearms or assisted dying / barbiturates.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Andrew,

        Thanks for your comment. I apologize for the late posting and reply. Your comment is thought provoking and, like many other similar comments, prompts me to question my own thinking. (You can see more about that here: In Defense of Suicide Prevention.)

        One area where you and I disagree is with your belief that people who die by heart attacks and strokes want to live, and people who die by suicide want to die. Yes, in the moment, the suicidal person wants to die, but the overwhelming majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by a suicide. (And no, this is not because they were rendered too physically disabled by their suicide attempt to try again. Such profound disability is rare.)

        The suicidal state, for many people is a temporary crisis born of cognitive distortions, trauma, mental distress, sleep deprivation, intoxication, psychiatric illness, addiction, crisis, and/or many other potential contributors. Often, when any one of those problems is resolved, the person does not want to die.

        When I worked in a general hospital emergency room, I saw many people who were 100% intent on ending their life when brought into the emergency room involuntarily by police, but who, once they sobered up or slept a few merciful hours or received the support of family, felt entirely differently. I know that’s not the case for everybody. And I know it can take far more than a few hours for someone to regain a desire to live. But it happens. For many people, in fact, it happens, whether in hours, weeks, months, or years. And for those people, it is the same as if they had been helped through a heart attack or stroke. Their mind tried to kill them, and they survived.

      • mic says:

        Stacey, would you say the same about denying people the right to make other drastic life choices that appear to not be in their best interests, such as dropping out of school early, marrying someone who is not suitable for them, choosing the wrong course to study? What do all of those things have in common with each other, but not with suicide? The fact that people can live with lasting and profound regret as a result of the choices they made concerning those other things, but they will never regret the choice to commit suicide (assuming a scenario in which they had a method that was guaranteed to kill them).

        People should have the right to invest their welfare in their own beliefs at the time, even if it is possible that those feelings could change under different circumstances. All of the choices that we make every day are contingent upon how we are feeling at the time, and how we project that we will feel in the future. In 3 of the 4 cases, how those people did feel in the future matched how they projected that they were going to feel in the future. When they are trying to escape suffering that they find intolerable, and you (physically) force them to continue to endure it without any guarantee (or anything close to a guarantee) of being able to solve their misery, you are torturing them. How many people is it acceptable to torture in order to secure a ‘benefit’ for a minority of people who wouldn’t even feel deprived of the ‘benefit’ had we not frustrated their desires and the desires of those who would never receive that benefit?

  17. John says:

    The big problem though is if you have a mental illness that there is no effective treatment for or don’t have a mental illness.

    I have had a series of very bad events; major financial loss, end of career (as a doctor), serious cycle accident with brain injury, police case and conviction for being suicidal.
    It just seems to get worse every year and I had no problems until 6 years ago, but now seem on the edge

  18. Lily says:

    You know, when speaking of suicide, no one ever seems to touch on politics, especially politics that concern people with LGBT leanings (particularly transgender people). Imagine being transgender…. your life is characterized by feeling out of place and uncomfortable in your body on the basis of the gender-specific anatomy you were born with, the pronouns used to refer to you, and the gender-specific social roles assigned to you. You desire more than anything to correct what you sincerely perceive to be a serious birth defect. This leads to depression, anxiety, self-esteem issues, and all of these things are exacerbated by society’s ignorant and sometimes outright persecuting attitude towards you and others like you.

    Any therapist worth their salt acknowledges this condition’s reality and how serious it is. While transition helps to treat the issue itself, it does NOT stop the social problems associated with it. When your political administration is markedly unfriendly to you, as a transgender person, and makes laws, guidelines, and regulations that seem like they are designed to inconvenience or otherwise regulate your life while the cigendered majority doesn’t have to worry about them, you, naturally, feel persecuted. Now, persecution is somewhat more manageable when it’s people who you can just walk away from and ignore who are doing it (i.e. religious zealots that preach like Pharisees on street corners). It’s another entirely when the government, either state or federal, or both, take these zealots/social conservatives side and start sounding like the government is in agreement.

    Now that it becomes political, you can’t escape it. You can’t walk away and ignore it. It will follow you and make you miserable until the administration changes hands and dramatically changes policy and quickly…. if it ever does. The natural uncertainty of the political system and its dynamics makes for a stressful, hostile, and unwelcoming environment when it is conservatives who are in power.

    Tell me why some of us who feel threatened by this, with little to no recourse to mitigate the threat, should continue to live with the understanding we are being persecuted and will likely see that persecution intensify. Why take a position or take action that will effectively only prolong suffering…. I mean, is that not cruel, when you understand this perspective? Locking people up in a hospital is expensive and the government does nto cover the cost of involuntary commitment unless you have government-funded insurance. Otherwise, you, the sufferer, are on the hook for the cost of your own treatment you did not consent to, which also leads to suicidal ideation due to the debt stress in addition to the initial problem that cannot be treated because it LITERALLY, takes an act of Congress to address politics.

    I want you chew on this for a while. Think about it long and hard. Come up with some cleverly constructed theoretical solutions. Then, get back to me and I’ll go over it with my red pen.

    • Chad N says:

      1) it is an unwelcoming environment when any zealot is in power. One of my most enjoyable activities was tutoring in college. An activity I had to stop because the liberal policy effectively equated accusation to proof thus making me feel unsafe working one on one with female students and refusing students based on gender would be descrimination. A different issue to being trans but an example of zealotry.
      2) I suffer from depression and other mental conditions I don’t care to share. I support euthanasia for such conditions and see no reason you shouldn’t have the option for medical evaluation and a request as well (this is my preferred form but I have no issue if others don’t want the evaluation). The issue is that people are worried about their own discomfort at the idea of you choosing to die more than they are your discomfort. Basically, people are selfish. That is just biology in my opinion and good luck overcoming it with reason.
      3) don’t get too much ink on your screen 🙂

  19. Teresa says:

    While reading this for a minute I didn’t feel so alone I have tryed to take my own life more times then I ever like to say one more recent I regret it more then anything in the world but yet I find my self still thinking I don’t want to be alive anymore really wish people in my life would or could understand what it’s like but I feel like no one ever understands

    • Chad N. says:

      Hello, I hope this finds you as well as possible. I am glad the chat helps you, it does me too on occasion. Perhaps if you regret your attempt then it is best it didn’t succeed this time? That is a question for you to ask yourself not a statement. It was just a thought. All I ever regretted about my attempts was that they didn’t succeed. I still regret that actually. My plan has evolved though, I am trying to get myself to Europe so I can have assistance. I think that will be easier on my parents etc so perhaps it was best my earlier tries didn’t as well. I think I understand just not wanting to be alive anymore. I can’t say I honestly say I believe many people do. I feel trapped, walking a long lonely path which I can clearly see contains nothing of value to me just more sorrow and that ends only in death. Thus to me dying earlier is merely shortening the path. Is that close?

      • Teresa says:

        Yea well I thought I was just hurting my self but I did hurt my kids in the process that only just hurts more then anything in the world but we’re still here for a reason just hope to find it soon wishing you all the best 🙂

    • Brittany Odle says:

      Why do you feel that way. You are valuable Teresa. I love you as a person. Email me we can talk jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com
      Anyone else can write me too. I care for you

  20. Josephine says:

    Why is it negative, bitter, or a hallmark of depression to be honest about the ultimate pointlessness of life? Life is forced upon us by our biological parents. It becomes akin to that hideous quilt gifted by a matronly aunt. We’re obligated to smile and put it on display, even though we detest it.

  21. MeJo says:

    I was searching the net for information on ‘why is it so bad to want to die’ and I came across this page. When I came here I was teary eyed. Yet after reading the comments my eyes have dried and I actually feel ok. I like how people have actually addressed pain/suffering from the sufferers perspective. It makes me feel that my feelings are important. I REALLY agree with the comments that discuss aetiology of suffering. One of the things I notice about people who want to stop people from taking their own life is that wanting to take one’s own life isnt something that comes to someone flippantly or isn’t caused by a small one off pain.

    Many of those people who want to now take their own life, were once actually nurturing, optimistic, deeply unselfish and hopeful people. However; it is their very nature that brought about their suffering. Those in society that have less of the qualities mentioned above often latch on to people who have those qualities. They drain the internal resources of the very people they like. Once drained the optimistic person obviously is no longer optimistic. They’re blamed and left. However being naturally optimistic and hopeful we bounce back and restore our resources. Then the next person comes along. The cycle continues. Family doesn’t attend to our needs (emotional) indeed quite often family leaves us be as we don’t demand much. Yet we still have developmental needs. No one teaches us in our developmental stage of growth the rules of reciprocity or causality. No one protects us. We are left to be happy go lucky.

    Several years pass and the ability to bounce back lessens with each additional fall. We become less convinced about ourself. We doubt our own thinking. We start to look around and notice others who were ‘takers’ and ‘mean’ are actually having a good life. We’re the ones who are suffering. Family gets bent out of shape because we’re starting to ask questions. They don’t like our new look on life. We feel more and more isolated, afraid and alone. We still can’t fully reconcile what happened to our spirit. Were we fake? It gets very confusing. Somehow any loss is no longer a single loss it starts to reflect our entire life. We believe this so much so that within a few short years we are our own self-destructor. We can’t even remember who we were and there’s no one to tell us that ‘it’s not you that’s at fault!’ We’re trying to keep ourselves in tact but no one is on our side genuinely. It’s worse than lonely. It takes all energy to remember ‘they can’t see my thoughts! Keep myself normal!’ ‘They’re smiling at me because they like me, not because they’re making fun of me!’ We know we’re on a dark south path. We can see it. We reach out to family and ask for help. Ask for time out just to get our head together. To help so that it all doesn’t fall apart. Family don’t help. In fact they’re telling us ‘what’s wrong with you?! Why can’t you just figure yourself out?! Why can’t you be like you used to be!!’ There’s no one to turn to. Soon all of the thoughts are starting to seem real and rather than being nice and obliging as always we’re angry and short. People around us tell us ‘you’ve changed, everything ok?’ This feeds into our fears. We become more angry and defensive. This continues until everyone in our life leaves us. Then we lose our job. Then we lose all our money trying to survive. Then and only then the choice becomes ‘jump’ or ‘beg’. We call our family. We plead and beg. We tell them that we’ll be on the street unless they can help. They say yes.

    It takes a near nervous breakdown, actual life ruin for family to say yes. Then they say ‘everything will be ok’. Why does it take this?

    Why do happy optimistic nurturing children end up shattered as an adult. They are latched onto and all their energy is gone. Parents do not teach life skills because the family is too busy depending on the happy nurturing child to save the family atmosphere.

    Suffering isn’t a little thing. It comes from resignation from a life continually bouncing and not having the life skills to help oneself through falls and prevention of falls.

    I wish mental health professionals truly looked within a suffering client. They’d probably find more light in them than a functioning (“normal”) person. The normal person is this way due to having been taught the idea of reciprocity in a relationship and having been taught causality and brought up with consistent and adequate demonstrations of causality.

    Those of us suffering are doing so because we internalise and self blame. We are unaware of our worth and thus have practically begged to be seen or loved. Taking one’s own life is not done so easily. It is the saddest and yet what some consider the kindest thing we can do to relieve the pain. Yet the truly kindest thing we can do is put our needs first. Our caring first. We are not a drain on anyone. We are probably the warmest and kindest people out there. Stay warm and kind to ourself. Learn causality and reciprocity and apply it vigilantly with all dealings in the outside world.

  22. Aaron_M. says:

    There is little to no actual empirical, logical or rational case for human life having more value than say, a turnip or a hamster. Likewise those things have no rational intrinsic value at all.

    Life does NOT have magic meaning or purpose.

    The platitudes on here about how being human or alive is so amazing and joy are clearly the product of mind who have zero idea whatsoever what suffering is. They are also making the case that the value of human life is based in its joys. Therefore if the misery outweighs the joy, then that life has no value.

    Suicide can help self select unwanted individuals and helps control the population. If the individuals were wanted, it is VERY unlikely they would be committing suicide. Most folks who “go through it” have ongoing issues, and little to no support in their lives. By this we mean, primary natural supports such as friends and family.

    “No friends or family? Life is painful, and has been for a very long time? No real chance of improvement? God, life must be AMAZING! You should not kill yourself as it might make me, a random stranger who ignored you until you were dead, feel a bit awkward.”

    Seems to me that in the grand equation, suicide reduces the overall suffering the world. If you don’t want your loved ones to kill themselves? Try treating them better. If there was a special someone, they would be less likely to kill themselves. Turns out that is fact.

    It is their body, their choice. Who the hell do people think are to demand that others suffer on their behalf, because of superstition and a vague sense of guilt?

    Death does, factually, and necessarily end the suffering. It is final, yes. It is a final end to all neurological activity and the pain which emerges from it. Only religious and superstitious mentalities argue otherwise. Once the brain is dead, pain stops. There is zero evidence of an afterlife. Death is the end of consciousness, all of it, including pain.

    Promising it will get better is at best predicting the future, and more accurately lying. You have no way of making that statement in truth, and literally all evidence indicates otherwise.

    Most don’t just wake and decide that today they are sad, so after one day the will wind it. They kill themselves because all experience and legitimate evidence says that it won’t get any better, and will probably get worse with time. It is a cop out so people don’t feel responsible for creating suffering in the world, which manifests as suicide in others and guilt in them.

    Life is not beautiful. It is mostly painful and pointless, especially for those for whom there are no memories of laughs and hugs. Again, this stuff is written by people who have zero clue what alone, or suffering actually is.

    If their will to live inspires you so much, you’d care about them while they still had a heart beat.

    All in all, suicide is not wrong at all. It simply is, and in most cases reduces the net suffering in the world.

    • Mimi Gee says:

      I agree with your comment 100%.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Aaron,

      I confess I felt defensive and argumentative while reading your comment, perhaps because it is provocative. I will indulge my urges to defend suicide prevention here:

      First of all, you wrote, “The platitudes on here about how being human or alive is so amazing and joy are clearly the product of mind who have zero idea whatsoever what suffering is.” I actually don’t mention joy or amazement in life in my post. You’re absolutely right that life is hard. Life builds in many people an enormous reservoir of trauma, loss, and suffering. And for many people life has – or acquires – value in spite of that. Suffering does not cause suicide by itself. If it did, then suicide rates would be vastly higher.

      You assert that “suicide reduces the overall suffering the world.” Actually, no. The reality is that the mothers, fathers, partners, siblings, and friends left behind suffer greatly. I don’t believe it is fair to invoke the suffering of others to persuade someone not to die by suicide; this is valuable as a deterrent only if concern for others arises spontaneously within the suicidal person. But I also cannot deny that suicide creates suffering in the survivors, especially because in most instances there was possibility for healing and survival in the suicidal person.

      You also stated, “Most folks who ‘go through it’ have ongoing issues, and little to no support in their lives. By this we mean, primary natural supports such as friends and family.” While lack of such support is certainly a risk factor for suicide, I am not aware of research that most people who die by suicide have little to no support in their lives. Are you?

      A great many people who die by suicide have supportive friends and family who tried hard to help the suicidal person. Yes, abuse and other mistreatment are risk factors for suicide, but it is insulting to suicide loss survivors to blanketly assume that none cared about or provided support to their loved one. I assure you that many fought desperately to help their loved one.

      I also had a reaction to your saying with absolute certainty that suicide ends pain. Your faith that there is no afterlife is just that – faith. It is the same kind of faith that causes people to say with certainty that there is an afterlife, in the same way that atheism is itself a sort of religion. You are correct that there is no evidence of an afterlife. There also is no evidence that there’s not. I say all this because for many people, fear of an afterlife – in particular, fear of retribution or of being reincarnated into a life of equal or even more suffering – deters them from suicide. With my stance toward suicide prevention, that deterrence is good. Whatever works!

      Yes, I do support suicide prevention in most cases, though I also have ambivalence about this stance. The way I see it, people who seek help from a mental health professional are ambivalent about suicide or else they wouldn’t seek help from a mental health professional. Often, their healthy self is at war with a mind that is trying to kill them. I believe it is important for therapists to ally themselves with the healthy self, not the self-destructive self. This is not because of some shallow belief that life always gets better, but because of empirical evidence that most people who attempt suicide and survive do not go on to die by suicide, as I note in my post above.

      Thank you for sharing here and for getting me to think more deeply about my own views about suicide prevention. And thank you for indulging my rebuttals to your comment. I actually considered not publishing your comment at all, out of fear that it could do harm to a vulnerable suicidal individual who reads it. But I know that you are not alone in your views, and I appreciate the opportunity to offer a different perspective.

      • mic says:

        “I also had a reaction to your saying with absolute certainty that suicide ends pain. Your faith that there is no afterlife is just that – faith. It is the same kind of faith that causes people to say with certainty that there is an afterlife, in the same way that atheism is itself a sort of religion. You are correct that there is no evidence of an afterlife. There also is no evidence that there’s not. ”

        There may not be conclusive evidence either way, but if the possibility of an afterlife and the continuation of suffering after death is a reason for coercive suicide prevention, then that is in breach of the separation between church and state. There’s no compelling evidence or logical argument that Aaron is wrong in his assertion (what would be the substrate for continued conscious existence once the brain has decayed, and why do people with brain atrophying conditions such as Alzheimers disease find that they lose their sense of self when their brain is in an advanced state of atrophy, if it is actually the immaterial soul that is the source of personality?).

        Therefore the convinced atheist should not be prevented from investing his own psychological and philosophical capital (his wellbeing) in what he sincerely believes to be the case; ergo that cessation of life will entail the cessation of suffering, without the drawback of being deprived of future positive experiences.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Mic,

        These are all good points. However, I don’t think anyone here (myself included) is saying that society should prevent suicides because there might be an afterlife.

        Belief in an afterlife is a deterrent personally for many suicidal people. Some worry about divine punishment. Others worry they might be reincarnated into a life of the same — or even worse — suffering.

        Those personal beliefs are important, but I agree with you that society’s laws and policies should not be guided by them.

        Thanks for sharing here!

    • David W says:

      I also agree with your comment for the most part. I doubt my reply will get posted but I’ll give it a shot mostly because it’s in response to this therapist’s reply to you.

      First of all atheism is in no way a form religion, you may want to look up the definition of that. Atheist believe there is no god essentially because there is no scientific proof of anything other than once you die and all your bodily functions stop then you are dead. That’s it, full stop. Those are the probable facts. Anyone proclaiming otherwise is doing so with no scientific evidence whatsoever. That’s why the word faith is used all the time because that’s the best reason they can come up with. I could go on but those are the facts and cannot be argued.

      The second issue I’d like to bring up that really gets under my skin is saying you shouldn’t commit suicide is because it will cause pain to your family and friends. While that is true, for one it’s temporary pain and you eventually deal with it and move on with your life. Trust me I know, I’ve lost my mother to cancer. The person who is serious about commiting suicide and who do go through with it are in so much pain in 1 or more areas that it’s so far beyond what the pain of losing a loved one pales by comparison, it’s in a whole other league to be honest. Franky it’s also terribly selfish for anyone to make that person feel shame or use it as a weapon to try and guilt the suicidal person not to do it.

      When I was 17ish my plan for taking my life fell through unfortunately. Then a few years ago after spending almost 30 years seeing doctor after doctor I tried again once I lost my job because I couldn’t physically do it anymore and I had zero prospects of ever working again due to my health issues. I went on vacation (which I had to spend 97% of in bed) and I tried a supposedly foolproof method of ending my life. [Edited to abide by the Comments Policy – SF.] Obviously since I’m writing this I woke up the next day with no I’ll effects. That was the worst day of my life (and that’s saying something).

      Thankfully I now have 2 surefire methods (obviously I won’t mention them in this blog) which I can do at the same time so next summer this hell will finally be over. I wanted to do it this summer but there is a lot to be done with a will, taking care of funeral arrangements etc etc and it takes me a long time to get things done.

      I know you work with depressed patients all the time but sometimes it feels like you’ve just read a bunch of psychology books from the 70’s and use religion when you are posting. Sorry I know you will find that very insulting but it feels like sometimes you have no clue what some of us are going through and in that respect it feels insulting to me and to others as well.

      Sure the vast majority will probably get better with a medication that works along with some means of psychotherapy and that’s great. But you are missing out on a whole other subgroup of people where there is no help and nothing is effective. I know you may find that hard to believe but I’m 46 now and between now and when I was 14 the absolute need to end this unbearable pain (both physical and mental) and life of pure hell has only become more of a necessity as year by year things have gotten worse. I can’t even count how many doctors I’ve seen (for more than one condition) and the sheer number of different meds I’ve tried would blow your mind.

      We euthanize our pets when they are too sick or in too much pain because we love them and can’t bear to see them suffer any longer and it’s the humane thing to do. How is it any different with humans, shouldn’t we have just as much compassion for them. It doesn’t seem to bother anyone that it’s going to cause a lot of pain to the family or owner because we know it’s the right thing to do so we do it. While it may be a bit more complicated because of the human factor there are pretty obvious times where it’s the the right thing to do.

      There is not always a possibility of healing (there are tons of people out there who can’t be healed due to certain illnesses and even mental ones) and I think not only is that statement downright false but a lie at worst. I know you deal with depressed patients on a daily basis and had a bout of depression yourself but please don’t think you have any clue as to what some of us go through on a minute by minute basis let alone days, hours, or months. Never mind on a scale of decades.

      I’ve tried to be as polite and civil as possible (it’s hard to tell if I’ve accomplished this as chronic pain, exhaustion etc have a tendency of making people grumpy to say the least).

      Thank you

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        David,

        Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your politeness and civility. Believe me, when it comes to these topics, not everybody is polite and civil!

        I am sorry you are suffering so deeply and for so long. You convey very powerfully the extent of your pain, though I suspect that pain is even greater than words can describe.

        To address your comments, I fully understand that some people suffer continually and have understandable reasons for wanting to die – and, even, for doing so. Comments from people such as you make me dig deeper into my own opinions to clarify, not only for readers but also for myself, my stance on suicide prevention. Ultimately, I support suicide prevention because to not prevent suicide can do harm to people who are temporarily suicidal, and the evidence is that an actively dangerous suicidal state is temporary for most people. But you are correct – not all people. Most.

        Contrary to what you wrote, I do not advocate that “you shouldn’t commit suicide is because it will cause pain to your family and friends.” I think if you re-read my comment you will see that I don’t support invoking the suffering of others as a means to stop a particular individual from suicide. I was responding to Aaron’s comment that suicide reduces suffering in the world. It certainly reduces suffering for the dead, so far as we know, but it creates suffering for living. For some that suffering might be temporary, but I assure you that for many parents, children, and partners of people who die by suicide, the suffering extends for decades. Again – I do not use that as an argument with a suicidal individual, though if concern for others is a deterrent to suicide for someone, I am not about to dissuade them.

        Although this is a tangent, I would like to clarify my comment that “atheism is a sort of religion.” Obviously it is not a religion inasmuch as atheism does not include a belief in a god or the supernatural. However, to say there is no god is a belief, not a known or proven fact. I am not alone in saying this belief falls under the rubric of religion, as others have written more persuasively on the topic than I; just do a web search for “is atheism a religion?” and you will find compelling arguments that a belief in no good requires the same mental machinery as belief that there is a god. (A good piece is “Atheism is a Religion,” by Kennedy.)

        Also, you wrote that I use religion in my posts. I actually do not, and as I note in the site’s Comments Policy, I reject comments that proselytize (though some that are on the border do get approved).

        Thank you again for engaging in this conversation so thoughtfully and civilly, even amid your chronic pain and exhaustion. Emotions often get high when suicide prevention is debated, my own included.

    • Cass says:

      great comment. I agree with everything.

    • Aiah Zohar says:

      Many of us agree with one of your largest points–that there is no inherent value to human life. “Value” is very often something people IMPOSE on things, like personalities, intellect, or physical appearance. Sadly, only one perspective on this matter … matters currently in the US–the perspective that human life is special, so special we’ll incarcerate (civilly commit) those who don’t think and act accordingly. Not actually “special”–if we truly believed that, as you’ve pointed out, we’d treat each other differently AND many who are suicidal likely wouldn’t be suicidal. But it’s easier to ARGUE that human life is special and mental suffering should be treated than it is actually to treat people with dignity, courtesy, compassion.

      It is personal freedom we ought to be investing our energies into fighting for. It’s unlikely either “side” is going to convince the other of its perspective.

    • Linares says:

      Aaron wrote:

      “Death does, factually, and necessarily end the suffering. It is final, yes. It is a final end to all neurological activity and the pain which emerges from it”

      On a side note, there was a study today in the journal “Science”

      DEATH COMES AS AN UNRELENTING TIDE OF DESTRUCTION, STUDY SHOWS

      Death sweeps through cells in a swift and unrelenting wave of devastation, scientists investigating cellular self-destruction have discovered…. Researchers watched death propagate through frog egg material in a “trigger wave” that spreads like fire through a forest. They published their findings in the journal Science.

      Read here:

      https://www.newsweek.com/death-comes-unrelenting-tide-destruction-study-shows-1067775

    • Tom H says:

      “There is little to no actual empirical, logical or rational case for human life having more value than say, a turnip or a hamster.” Many of us agree with you, Aaron. Most of my friends and I remember reaching that conclusion before we’d finished elementary school. Maybe people are so terrified of death or the prospect of an objectively meaningless life that, even after they’ve completed schooling, they must reinforce these stories about life-value and an afterlife to make their experiences seem worthwhile.

      I’m sure you’ve run into the typical circular reasoning arguing against personal autonomy. Whether someone believes in god or an afterlife or in neither should be irrelevant when it comes to thier deciding what is in their own best interest so long as they aren’t putting others in immediate danger. Few want to consider seriously how religiosity and related ideological ephemera implicitly affect policy around self-determination. That is, as I see it, the important point–not whether there is or isn’t an afterlife–a question we may never answer.

      Just as belief in god ought to remain private and not influence what other citizens MUST do, so too other abstract beliefs (like that human life, conveniently in particular, has “value,” and that humans, again conveniently in particular, have afterlives) should remain private. Professionals and the state should not be exploiting their abstract beliefs and feelings to force citizens to undergo treatment or remain alive against their will.

    • Peter Donaviche says:

      I completely agree with your comment. I honestly thought I was the only one who had this viewpoint.

    • T Eflow says:

      I agree with what you wrote and more importantly I’m impressed with the eloquent way you wrote it. If it is your original writing and how YOU feel, I hope you aren’t suicidal because you want to be a writer. Just saying, you could write and adoring fans will hug and love you. Of course that would prove the theory of people that feel strongly about saving strangers from suicide, which I am not.

  23. Anonymous says:

    Really?

  24. Lee kelley says:

    I get so sick of hearing other people saying it’s selfish you’ll hurting people that’s left behind my question is do you really want me to keep living in hurt and painful depression just so I can satisfy other people’s wants. I call BS on all that I think one has the right to suit themselves .

    • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

      Yes. That’s exactly what people want. To enforce your will upon someone else is only for selfish reasons. However, you have to justify your own discomfort with religion or a vague ‘suicide is not an option’ style argument.

      When it’s someone else, they will shout ‘religion’, ‘life at all costs’, and some will say ‘go ahead and let them die’…

      When it’s a friend or family member, it’s “How could you want to leave? *I’ll miss you.*”

      I’ll miss you… that’s a common theme. Not “I want you to be happy and without pain,” but “Don’t do it… I’ll miss you… it can’t be that bad, can it? What about medication?”

    • Anonymous says:

      I agree 100%.

  25. Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

    “Diagnosable mental illness.” So? Cancer is a diagnosable physical illness, multiple sclerosis is diagnosable… does that mean you should force life upon someone, or that choosing to end suffering is a bad thing?

    Any illness would distort your thinking to want to be rid of the illness.

    Having a mental illness should not prevent anyone from being able to end that suffering. There’s only so much medication can do, if it’s even prescribed. There’s only so much therapy can do, if it’s even available.

    Mental health practitioners admit that there is no magic cure, and few will admit that there are cases that are difficult or impossible to treat.

    Any adult should be given the same compassion and love we give our animals. An enduring and/or well considered wish to die should be helped, not leaving those in pain to die alone and possibly risk failure and even more suffering.

    Religious arguments are completely selfish. They are to make yourself feel better and appear virtuous, and not about anyone else. It is not your duty to ‘save’ someone from religious retribution. It is between him and his God, if he has one.

    • Heber Child says:

      Couldn’t have said it better.

    • Chad N. says:

      Well put. I just don’t believe the majority are willing to listen. I am beginning to wonder if pushback on this, aside from the religious stance you already covered, might be the result of people not wanting to admit they failed someone. Failed to improve the suicidal persons life, mood, etc. In effect they would be endeavoring to avoid survivors guilt. Sounds better than thinking they just discount the pain of another because it isn’t their own.

      • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

        Personal comfort is a major reason, I think. Someone doesn’t want the discomfort of dealing with the death of a friend or family member, so will try to stop him dying, but he won’t go out of his way to help him live, either.

        It is easier to ignore a problem and have a family member live forever, than to give the love and compassion that family member sorely wants… by either helping him live, or helping him die.

        My family are so wrapped up in themselves, I think I only saw them all give me attention the last time I was in the hospital after taking an overdose of paracetamol.

        I wonder how much of Governments’ reluctance to permit assisted suicide and euthanasia is to reduce bad investments. It takes a lot of time and resources to raise a child, and to have a young adult opt out of life is a net loss for society.

        However, the time and resources that go into preventing and treating mental health issues so that they don’t become chronic or resistant to treatment is inadequate.

        “We won’t help you die, but we won’t help you live.”

        When suicide is decriminalised, but the means of reliable and painless suicide are removed, then suicide is effectively still prohibited.

        Religion is an intellectually lazy argument from Government, followed by ‘everyone can get better’, ‘palliative pain relief’, ‘suicide is not an option (for whatever reason)’, and whatever other claptrap Government comes out with.

    • Tom H says:

      Wholly agreed. But then, I don’t make my money or secure my community standing (academic publications, university appointments, web presence…) through treating “mental illnesses.” That something so vague and unscientific even persists in this age of requisite physical evidence and rigorous cause-effect arguments in support of biomedical claims is a testimony to the doggedness of the professional psychiatric and psychological lobbies.

    • Future physician says:

      First off, I want to reemphasize a great point that Dr. Freedenthal made. She stated that, “90% of people who die by suicide had a diagnosable mental illness.” I think this is very important point when talking about why we should stop people from committing suicide. This is because it emphasizes that suicidal patients may lack the ability to make a sound decision, especially an irreversible decision such as death. Decisional capacity is defined as the ability of a patient to make their own health care decisions, based on many factors that physicians use to judge. One could argue that someone with a diagnosable mental illness might not appreciate or understand the severity of their actions. For example, in the study Anxiety Evokes Hypofrontality and Disrupts Rule-Relevant Encoding by Dorsomedial Prefrontal Cortex Neurons, data indicates that anxiety has an intricately selective effect on neuronal activity that supports decision making and shows that anxiety often leads to bad decision-making. So rather than allowing people to make such a permanent decision, possibly without fully understanding its weight, I think we should focus our efforts towards controlling and directing their mental health. Another great point Dr. Freedenthal brought up is that 90% of people who survived a suicide attempt did not die from suicide. This leads me to believe that suicidal intentions, although powerful and painful, are passing. I would be interested in knowing whether there was a correlation between improved mental state or well controlled mental illness with decreased desire to end one’s own life.

  26. Maio says:

    “Consider that 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt do not go on to die by suicide. ”
    So what? Why are assuming that means the 90% are better off alive? 1) Couldn’t I change people opinion’s on most decisions through altering their brain chem through drugs and brainwashing? 2) In order to die by suicide you have to overpower the strongest instinct it’s not like getting a cup of coffee.

  27. nah says:

    I’ve given it 40 years, and it’s not any better. Still alone, no friends, no family, no chance at anything I wanted in life. Its somedays torture, somedays just empty, going through the motions of existence. Why bother? Its to the point where I don’t even enjoy things I used to enjoy; to be fair, its because I have no one to do things with anymore. There’s only so many times you can travel alone before you get tired of not having anyone to share the experience with. So why should someone like me keep living? It’s never going to change; there’s so, so much evidence of that. And no evidence to indicate it will get better. Data is a thing.

  28. Cass says:

    i feel more and more like a masochist for staying alive. things just dont stop getting worse. it’s tragedy after tragedy and im so tired of the constant suffering. i think my life is really cursed, doomed to pain and despair.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Cass,

      You must be going through many struggles for life to feel so painful. I hope you will consider using one of the resources that I list at http://www.SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources/#immediatehelp, so that you can connect with someone by phone, email, text or chat who can help you.

      Thanks for sharing here.

      • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

        A link for ‘immediate help’ for someone who is ‘so tired of the constant suffering’?

        The woeful failures of modern psychiatry… which are unaddressed and suppressed… should be realistically evaluated.

        When is suffering too much? Who decides? I agree that psychiatric conditions can lead to impulsive suicidal behaviour, but when it is protracted and constant, despite treatment attempts to help improve mood, then it is a terminal psychiatric illness if it has no foreseeable end date.

  29. Steve says:

    The Fact is, Most People in America & Worldwide are Pro-Choice and Support the Right To Die, Death with Dignity Movement for Suffering Mentally ill, Terminally ill, and other Suffering People who Hate Life & Hate their Lives, you know the song “Live and Let Die” and the other Beatles song “Let it Be” Forcing Suffering People to “Live” In misery Against their will, at all costs is just plain wrong, Most People in America & Worldwide are Morally Opposed to any type of Suffering Person being forced to “Live” in misery Against their will, at all costs, being treated worst than animals, Robin Williams killed himself in August 2014 at the age of 63, Articles online have stated how he had only Three Years left to Live, Only 3 years left to Live even with the best treatment, his quality of Life would have gotten worst and worst, He was doomed, Even the Widow of Robin Williams said that Robin did the right thing by him Killing himself, and that she doesn’t blame him one bit , many other people have said Robin Williams did what he had to do, that it was his choice alone to make, and his right, he didn’t physically harm anyone else, there is an article online, Google it, by Mr. Lane Filler, titled
    “Sometimes Suicide Deserves Respect” this article was written shortly after the Suicide or Robin Williams

    • Tom H says:

      Steve, thank you for your comment! Yes, you are right. We who support the absolute freedom of the individual over her or his own flesh and personal life are rapidly growing–not just here in the USA, but in countries across the globe. At the same time, more and more papers are being published about the fallacies of modern clinical psychology–about the research biases, the irreproducibility of randomly selected studies in the field’s most reputable journals, about the poverty of variable definitions, about the lack of rigorous cause-effect arguments underlying psychology’s experiments, about the pervasive cultural, professional, and individual bias that grossly weakens inferential validity in the discipline. Very much of modern psychology is little more than a modern state-sanctioned religion. And like traditional religions are paling next to the strength of the real sciences, not a single one of which is evaluative (volcanoes aren’t “wrong,” but feeling a certain way about one’s life is…), modern psychology is losing its hold on the people who are waking up to the realization that there is no such thing as objective life-value. That what anti-suicide pundits put forth as “truth” is nothing more than personal value being imposed on others who feel differently.

      But we are waking up. We are forcing our legislators to change laws. And soon, much like it’s irrelevant what a religious person believes is the “right” way for anyone else to live, the sentiments and values of the psychology-minded, on matters of others’ personal life evaluations, will also become irrelevant to the decisions others must make.

      You’re right. Things are changing. And these social ideologists won’t be able to put the genie back into the bottle. Long live personal autonomy!

  30. Jeremy Bergo says:

    And what about those that are is such mental pain that it’s like knive constantly stabing them. A pain that has been with them from childhood, to there current age of 45. A person who has always desired death. What right do you have to stop this person forcing them to live a life of torture. How can you claim to be humane people when you force people to live in pain!!!?

  31. Anonymous says:

    I’ve “lived” for over 50 years post several tries at killing my self. Not a day goes by that I am not barraged with multiple desires and images to kill myself. I deeply wish I had not been stopped from killing myself. I stopped trying to kill myself because I was severely punished in the name of “treatment”: restraints, stripped of clothing and wrapped in ice cold sheets, assaulted by staff and patients. Treatment ravaged me financially.

    I learned not to share my pain. I raised two successful children, now extraordinarily
    competent adults devoid of my mental health issues.

    I never received any public or financial aid. I am a retired social worker who was noted for my effective advocacy skills.
    But I have personally lived a sad, lonely, life largely because I have never been able to be honest about my feeling, thoughts and desires because I knew I knew I would be punished more than I had been.
    The USA Mental Health System still punishes rather than treats persons with mental illnesses.

    In a few days I will turn age 75 – Now self-selected death is what our government wants of me and it has a nice name: euthanasia.
    Soon my earthly pain can stop.
    My final plea is: Stop punishing and provide funds for research of causes and humane treatment of persons with mental illnesses.

    • just me says:

      Sorry you went through so much pain, i have been in hospital 3 times… after reading your cruel time in i do not blame you for closing up. I spent my life closed up over issues, when I did bring it up I was shut down by a social worker specializing in this field LOL… That night I put a gun to my head. Ended up calling crisis line.

    • Paul says:

      There is something that all seem to be overlooking, and that is the simple meaning of mental illness. Look at how such has been treated over the last 2500 years throughout the world, and it is obvious that most people that are said to be mentally ill really have nothing at all wrong with them.

      The main reason people mostly women have been declared mentally insane is because they have property or something else that others related to them want. Also another reason is that they think different than others with more money and political influence find acceptable.

      There are also some men that have been locked up for thinking different such as Marques De Sade, and by modern standards he was a strange thinker, but by today’s standards not mentally ill. Because of his deviant sexual desires for the time, and now days we have places that people can engage in those activities commonly called S&M B&D, and in Japan people can rent a room by the hour to enjoy your time with a partner or many partners.

      Also the things that can be treated with drugs, and are caused by an imbalance can be treated by doctors easily with medications so that they feel normal are what I personally see as mentally ill. The other people are what I would classify as social misfits that really should keep their mouth shut and be careful who they are open with because they are seen as freaks and mentally ill just because they have politically unpopular views.

      When people have politically unpopular views they should find others in a group and keep their activities and meetings quiet in the form of a secret society as has been done for many thousands of years to keep themselves out of prisons and out of psych wards throughout the many countries throughout the world.

      Also being locked up for life for something that most would not consider a crime to a normal person probably would be a reason that they would want to die, after all they would have little chance of their life improving. Keeping in mind what The Church of Satan says about suicide:

      As a general rule, the Church of Satan frowns upon both self-sacrifice and suicide, because it is the ultimate denial of the fulfillment of one’s own life.

      Satanists do accept suicide as a reasonable option for those who are suffering “extreme circumstances which make the termination of life a welcome relief from an unendurable earthly existence.” (p. 94. of The Satanic Bible) In short, suicide is acceptable when it becomes a true indulgence.

      To most people they might find this repugnant, but if we follow this as I do we would not need to worry about being locked up. That is because unlike what many Christians say about the United States of America, it basically does follow a Satanic philosophy, as they do see themselves as their own God etc. As such I would recommend reading the Satanic Bible, as it is cheap and can and does save people every day. It has saved me many times living in this world as I used to think that there was nothing for me in this world when I was a child, and none need follow through with giving things up such as their current faith unless you want to. Also keep in mind I am a part of a number of Christian groups, and mainly mention this because it can help people possibly find a new and better outlook on life. Also keep in mind that The Church of Satan members will report on crimes such as anyone that would do anything to harm an animal or a small child. As a matter of fact Peter Gilmore does tell of reporting one guy to the FBI because of him sending a message saying that he was planning on killing a grand parent. Also it is said a large number of members are in law enforcement, but due to their member policy of keeping the names of members secret they will not say who they are.

      Basically I am saying to people here that I have read your stories and also presented a few of mine about what is wrong and how life in this country could be better, and thought that it would be helpful if I shared at least one of the many things that has helped me to make it to my 50’s and avoid getting locked up for any reason. Freedom is very important today, as I can say that if I did not have the freedoms that are available to me today I would have died many times over. That is because if I were a child today in many countries I would be dead because of my Asthma alone, or dead from Pneumonia, and a long list of other things that doctors are allowed to treat me for here. There are countries in the world where parents are not allowed to get medications for their children at least last that I knew in parts of El Salvador, Guatemala, Ecuador, and many others in Asia, Africa, Central and South America, parts of Europe, and the middle east. That is because poor people are not allowed to buy or have access to many medications that we in this country have access to. One of the reasons is Classicism, and the other is because it is called drug smuggling in many places.

      Poor people are forced to live in many countries with no rights at all, as they most have money even to have the police provide them any protection, and I know this sounds strange to people here in the USA that is basically a police state to white people compared to the 1950’s. However, all of this is true. Anyone can find this to be true if they were to actually do enough fact checking, and the research. Also many people from Central America are coming into the United States through Mexico (and Canada but less likely) for this reason. They do this so that they can earn here in a day what they were making in a month (more or less), working minimum wage. Also so their Children can have access to medical care. I can say based on personal Experience that in Mexico, people do have access to good medical care, and do have affordable heath coverage in Mexico. Meaning that they came here because they were unable to get a good mechalabor job in Mexico. Healthcare is affordable in Mexico, and quite often costs the same or less than the Co-Pay for most heath plans here in the USA since the ACA went into effect.

      Basically I am saying we see our lives bad here, and if we look at ourselves as the reason that our lives are the way they are and act on that, and forget that we are told that it is all in God’s hands. Also remember from the Christian perspective that ever since Adam and Eve took a bite of the apple that the choices that we make in life are up to us. We are said to have free will and are allowed to make choices to help make our lives better. That said if anyone enjoys things that others around you do not think you should enjoy use the Internet to find others that share the enjoyment of those same things. Don’t let others even your wife, kids, husband or any other relations dictate what you should or should not like. That alone is enough for most to be thinking of killing yourself, that is because those self destructive thoughts are caused by others that are forcing you not to be able to be yourself. Also like I said before unpopular views can also get you locked up in a psych ward, but not as easy as it was 50 and more years ago. That is since Ronald Reagan was Governor of California, and other like minded Governors shut down the Mental Hospitals from allowing people that were not seen as a treat to themselves or others, or personally committing themselves from being kept in there. This is why we have people today on the streets that are unable to support themselves. They are misfits that do not fit in and are unable to find a job that can support themselves do to their beliefs and the way that they act. However that does not mean that all people need not worry about such as I just said, people can mistakenly get themselves committed and be far worse off and medicated heavily just because they are different.

      This being said, and sorry about it being so long winded… However I feel that it is important as being my brothers (or sisters) keeper, and looking out for my neighbors that I share all of this with others to possibly help them and give them an alternative way of helping themselves. That is because I believe that everyone can be helped, but not all people can be helped in the same way (although this goes against many doctrines). Also we must not forget that at one time Science was said to be the new religion, in this new century the new religion is Psychology. If you do not think that it can help you, chances are you can be locked up by saying things that might be seen as a threat to self or others. I am quite sure that many will agree with this even if they can’t say so because it might be harmful to their employment in the medical sector of our society.

      I also welcome reading more posts from others, and wish all enjoyment in their life and freedom from pain and the pains of life. Also if you do not have such that you should make changes in your life to make it happen (keeping in mind be careful what you do say to others that are physically near you that might stand in your way of finding your happiness and what you enjoy in life). As a matter of fact I am saying to some people it is best to walk out and go far away from your family, friends, job, home, hometown, or anything else that is holding you back in your life from being able to enjoy life.

    • Tom H says:

      What you’ve confessed here is immensely important. I notice that when people like you do come forth to share that, despite “treatment,” they are, decades later, still suicidal, or that “treatment” was really state-sanctioned abuse for which the victims is then CHARGED, or that ex-patients CLAIMED to have been “cured” because the cost of being truthful is far too high (which is a type of reporting bias that drastically distorts professionals’ claims of the effectiveness of modern psychological and psychiatric interventions), no professional therapists or social workers come forth to explain why this is still happening. Professionals are quick to toss out 1-800 “help” numbers (despite the explosion in online reports about how poorly these so-called help lines serve those who need help), but they’re not quick to address the deeply disturbing reports like those you’ve made.

      It’s also very telling that you yourself are a professional social worker. If there were a guaranteed cure for cancer and a physician were diagnosed with cancer, it would be logical, anticipatable that the physician, her-/himself an expert in medicine, would demand the effective treatment. Yet many, many, many professional psychologists and social workers … suffer the ravages of so-called mental illness despite the virtually-guaranteed cures we keep reading/hearing about. Very telling.

      Sorry for your pain. Very, very sorry. Thank you for adding yet another important testimony.

  32. TM says:

    I’m sure that if I were to survive an attempt, I might feel somewhat relieved. Who knows? At this point, I’m just numb and feel dead inside. Were I single with no kids, I’d probably end my life as soon as possible. I have no friends and my career is in the toilet. I’m not needed here in a world of billions of people. I wouldn’t be missed. Such is the way. I had a few ok prospects at a fulfilling life, but nothing seems to have gelled, mostly because I’m INCREDIBLY LAZY.

  33. Aaron says:

    It should be a case of being able to buy a £200 bottle of nembutal. That’s how easy and cheap it should be, in fact even cheaper, £100. I can buy it cheaper than that if I were to travel to Mexico or Peru etc. In fact risks of bringing it back to the UK aside it would still be cheaper than, for example Dignitas, to fly to mexico, buy the nembutal and fly back to the UK.

    Once again, despite the fact that we have no choice over whether we come into this world, the choice to leave it is stifled by those who worship money or those who believe a few statistics from Psychological research are the be all and end all. Research and stats by the way that are possibly heavily flawed. That 90% figure for example. I would like to see if the researchers continued to keep track of their case studies to see if they had attempted suicide since? Have they achieved it since? How long a period were the studies conducted over? How many people took part? Every suicide attempt in the world (obviously impossible)? Anyone got the answers to all this for me? No. spouting a few numbers means nothing, absolutely NOTHING.

    The Kevin Hines story is all great and lovely, but it’s one in an ocean that are untold and is not conducive as proof that the person who wrote this article is right and that all regret the decision to attempt suicide. Many, many people do go on to attempt it again and die.

    It really annoys me, these people are as self righteous as the religious crowd who say Suicide is punishable by eternal damnation when in my opinion God/Allah etc don’t exist anyway, neither do heaven or hell, therefore I have nothing to worry about.

    Besides if someone dies they won’t care anyway because they will be no more, they won’t feel pain or loss, they will feel nothing and neither will they care because they will not exist to care. What bliss.

    My reasons for wishing to get it over and done with are many including a couple of losses both recently and in the past year (just under) that I can’t get past nor can I reverse (I think at least, pretty sure though), constant mental struggles that the mental health services are failing to diagnose time and again, despite the fact I am sure I know what my problem is and have told them, financial ruin, not knowing who I am anymore and that’s to name a few. Suicide is not even illegal, yet accessing a peaceful and painless means of doing so is made so difficult it’s unreal. I’m trying to import nembutal as we speak, but it’s proving difficult. I have found a source who will ship a bottle of liquid nembutal to me, from Mexico, for a total of around £400 and whilst expensive in my opinion, it’s a damn sight cheaper than Dignitas and others and preferable to continuing this existence.

    Thankfully there are people like Dr Philip Nitschke of Exit International who believe it is the right of all to have access to a safe, reliable and painless means of exit. He believed it should be the right of all adults who make the decision logically, of their own volition and not restricted only to those who are terminally ill.

    To those who believe these things are temporary, please don’t patronise me. This is my choice and no one else has any say in the matter. How dare anyone try and insinuate otherwise. In the words of John Stuart Mill;

    “Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign”

    Couldn’t have put it better myself. This whole topic makes me so angry and frustrated.

    • Aiah says:

      “Thankfully there are people like Dr Philip Nitschke of Exit International who believe it is the right of all to have access to a safe, reliable and painless means of exit.”

      &

      “Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.”

      Bravo! Yes, these sentiments–and they are no less valid than the prevalent sanctity-of-life sentiment (rather than any objective, empirical fact)–are becoming more and more popular around the world. There is no “valid” refutation to the assertions above, neither in the sciences nor in philosophy. Every type of counter-argument rests on mere personal opinions that happen to currently be common (though no other popular sentiment is deemed objectively true). Consequently, more governments are recognizing that no other entity (professional, governmental…) should have command over an individual’s evaluation and determination of his/her own life.

      Like many other rights movements that challenged assumptions of right/wrong and, therefore, personal autonomy, this one will win ultimately, too, because there are no good enough reasons for it not to. Religion and psychology and other transcendentalisms simply cannot force everyone to believe the same things, especially in a world that is broadly riddled with corruption and social harms humanity either doesn’t want to stop or doesn’t know how to stop.

      Thank you for being brave enough to speak up.

    • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

      It costs £15 or £20 for a lethal dose of pentobarbital. Maybe £75-£150 for two medical assessments, or one medical and one psychiatric assessment. Some miscellaneous administration charges.

      The expensive part would be the funeral.

      The true cost to society for young adults is a lost investment. Government wouldn’t otherwise care about anyone dying if it weren’t costly for them. For the elderly, really it is a massive cost saving effort… considering Governments import so may immigrants now to try to plug the pension defecits. It’s only fear of public opinion and backlash that they don’t offer suicide on demand for the elderly and permanently disabled.

      Considering Governments don’t want to lose their investment, you’d think they would make more effort with mental health treatment and prevention… giving people medications that work very well (older classes), and not be so risk averse and robotic to take the safest and therefore easiest route for them. (A doctor would rather you kill yourself with your own rope than risk a more effective treatment that you might kill yourself with.)

      Litigation and publicity is a scourge to certain medical conditions, and most psychiatric conditions. It generates risk averse and/or fraudulent psychiatry.

      Good luck with Mexico.

  34. Ellen says:

    This is great. And I respect your position however. I have an incurable Disease which is driving me to financial ruin to the point of choosing if I can in fact continue treatment. I cannot simply because money has run out. I need to end this agony. I’m facing financial destitution. When it’s like this I have to think of more than myself. I cannot leave my family homeless when there is nothing more we can do. I’m over this. I’m the one suffering daily. I’m the one stacking up the overwhelming costs. So no. I’m not interested in help for saving me but help to complete the task at hand.

  35. me says:

    you say you would care but you wouldnt even know

  36. Paul says:

    When someone is suffering and it is growing worse all the time then it is natural to want to go, and that is why Oregon has an assisted suicide law. The thing that makes it good in my opinion is that doctors are required to do something to help with the suffering so that they are given a chance at life. It is the suffering that makes the mind think such thoughts as I should not be here. The same thoughts that most animals have before they die, we even are encouraged to give our pets a peaceful farewell when they are suffering and there is really nothing that can be done to help them any longer. However being the litigious society that we are and also because too many want the government to be their daddy when they are not able to solve problems on their own. People generally suffer needlessly, and there are exceptions for things such as hospice care for stage 4 cancer for those that live in some of the major cities, and they can get high levels of morphine till they decide to checkout on their own. I refer it this way as they are almost gone and just want to spend a last few minutes with someone before they go. However, those that are not close to San Jose and other places with the best of care. Those people suffer the worst. In Russia for example, military people with terminal cancer are not able to get the pain relief due to international restrictions and restrictions in Russia as well. This is a world wide problem, and the best country to die in from what I read is England and the UK, the USA is in the top 5, so is Australia, and New Zealand, France, Switzerland, Canada, etc. Basically the countries that are at the top for use of pain medications. There are some parts of the world were there is no relief from pain other than what is available from drug dealers at a high cost, according to multiple sources on palliative care. This is mostly due to the enforcement of drug laws to stop trafficking in narcotics. Part of the law at the UN was to make sure that there was legal access, but the cost to do that in most countries is prohibitive. It is very difficult in Mexico as well I know someone his mom is going through what I am however I have a good pain doctor helping me, something that she does not have access to. As my wife used to put it (till I lost my job), be careful at work, you know they shoot horses when they become disabled. As in Animal Farm, and this is a good reading about the problems of socialism and over reaching government written by George Orwell. There are many other short books that do give this problem a perspective, and they have unsurprisingly all been written in the last 100 years. Back then most things that are illegal and regulated today were quite legal and easy to get, then came the outlaw of liquor then it all changed for the worst things have been going downhill for the common citizen since then. Just as the old saying absolute power corrupts absolutely. Also there are no checks and balances when it comes to government agencies, they set their own rules and enforce them. Only rarely does congress even question them on the things that they do that harm many. Does Senator Joe McCarthy ring a bell to anyone? He basically ran the UN-American activities committee, and many people lost their jobs and were unable to find work because they were suspected communists, and there were a few but most were not. That really does not matter to the average person till they loose everything because they were called into be a witness in a witch hunt, and then they find out that they are also suspect. That is the out of control war on drugs, it can’t be won… it is a power play where most are the looser, same with the war on terror, it is something that also can’t be won but there is trillions to be made for a small number of companies, and all of us loose our civil rights as a result. Personally I have no fear of terrorists in the USA, as they are very unlikely to kill me or even harm me or anyone that I know. We are more likely to be struck by lightning. However there are some that are targets, and some places that are targets. Basically anything that calls out to foreigners, Corporate America if you were to get a job at such a place you would get paid tax free many times what you could earn doing the same job at home… However you would have to watch your back at all times when there including travel to and from the work site, and also in and out of that country. Usually people that take such jobs are retired military, that are still quite young. They have put in their number of years that they signed up for, and they can go back and earn many times more. As all of those jobs require a security clearance, and that is one of the benefits that people get in the military, at least from all of those that I have talked to with an honorable discharge (while we are taking classes together in college).

    One of the hard realities of the world that we are never told about as children is what the real world is like, and quite often our parents do not even know the most of it, but I will leave that with there are many loosers in any conflict and often it is those that were not even involved. Also determine the source of the message before paying attention to it, as this tell you the slant that they are giving the message, and lastly it comes down to that the only person that you should fully trust is yourself, as others under certain conditions may use what you tell them against you no matter how subtle. This holds doubly true when talking to those that are employed by the government, and above all most people consider most of their work just a job and for the most part are interested in covering themselves for legal liability. However there are exceptions to this, and you will know because they will do things to help you when others will not. Also those most helpful never ask leading questions so they can get something out of you, but are most likely to say not to mention something to others for your own benefit. Also how you appear in attitude is more important than how you actually feel, and this goes along with what someone sees from you in the first 10-15 seconds determines how they actually see you, no matter how false that it really is. Sadly quite often the only person that can do the most to protect you is yourself, and it also helps to know and have a personal relationship with a psychologest in your medical plan as that can save you and your family lots of greif in the future. It also helps to have a good lawyer, as those that are innocent need a lawyer more than those that are guilty of a crime. That is because innocent and guilty are decisions of the court and really makes no difference if you committed a crime or not. That is because it is far easier to get a confession out of someone that has not committed any crimes than someone that has in the past and knows what not to say so they can stay free. As quite often most guilty verdicts do not involve a trial and also evidence that you did not do it is often suppressed. To prove my point look on YouTube for a video called something like “Why you should never talk to police” also “you can’t talk yourself out of a ticket”. The best ones are done by law schools, lawyers, and former police officers. Keep in mind that most police are good, but all it takes is one bad one to ruin your life. I am bringing this up mainly because of the name of the topic here, and you do not want the police to take you away on suicide watch. They will if you are seen as an immediate threat to yourself, and that is exactly why I mentioned most everything that I have. You are in the clear if you say you fear for your life due to your poor treatment by someone or some company etc, and it sometimes helps to say that you have people that will likely die due to they are disabled and unable to function well enough to care for themselves if you are not able to etc. also that you fear for their life. Basically what I am getting at is don’t talk your way into a situation that it takes a team of lawyers and a couple of outside psychologists to get you out of. That being giving a date that you might end your life etc. Those kind of statements get people all the time, and I have heard a read a few. Also as the old saying goes most people will do the easiest thing they can to complete their given task, that is unless they will get paid more to drag it on, and most police during an investigation can and do look for that overtime pay. I know because I have known a few police officers over the years, and also went to school with a few. The agenda is not your safety as much as society as a whole, and as such they look out for fellow officers first.

    • Aiah says:

      Paul, thank you for your detailed comment. I feel most will misread what you’ve shared, but there’s nothing any of us can do about this. I am a board certified neurologist and regularly do psychiatric consults (when behavioral aberrations are likely the consequence of physically identifiable neural pathology or trauma). I’ve posted elsewhere in this and other threads on self determination over the years largely as a counter-voice to the prevalent–and severely misguided, both philosophically/ethically and scientifically–psychological pathology model of mental health. What I express never goes over well and has been strongly censored by members of the professional psychiatry/psychology communities. It is only my standing as a department chair and a well published professional myself that has saved my career from unabashed threats from those who cannot produce any empirically sound arguments or evidence objectively defending their platform of psychological pathology, including their fabricated definitions of mental illness wholly uncorroborated by any rigorous causal arguments the rest of the world of science requires in order to substantiate claims.

      This is relevant because the perspectives and sentiments and values of these psychological professionals are then used to exploit public gullibility (the public largely believes or acts in accordance with what credentialed professionals say) and manipulate laws and policy (so what free citizens can do is circumscribed by the UNempirical, scientifically UNsound pronouncements of a few–despite the blatant conflicts of interest; maybe you’ve read the reports of the recent internal memos from Goldman Sachs about what poor business practice curing patients is). Still, our culture sacrifices personal freedom on the altar of the appearance of ethical responsibility. Never mind that very many of the precipitants of suicidality have their genesis in government policy and the way communities treat the vulnerable. We can’t or won’t change society, so we’ll instead vilify or pathologize those who succumb to society’s treatments, thereby alleviating the rest of us from any culpability.

      People need to understand what you’ve pointed out about law enforcement–that it is NOT there to protect the individual (but rather the State), and that in psychiatric settings, as elsewhere, what one says–HOW one says something–provides fuel AGAINST oneself. Yes, everyone should have a trustworthy lawyer. As much as that’s an apparent oxymoron, it’s also financially beyond the means of most citizens. Which is all the more of a reason for people to protect themselves by not saying things likely to have their rights removed. I have been present in clinic many times when innocent statements by reasonably bereaved patients or family members have resulted in unconscionable incarceration (“civil commitment”). And you are dead correct that it takes boatloads of cash, time, personal fortitude, and exceedingly competent and willing legal help to TRY to undo such damage. Many such victims, including a psychiatric nurse whom I’d known since my own medical residency, find their careers over after a long and costly and bitter legal battle. All because someone said a few wrong words aloud. Talk about the thought police.

      I’ve said it frequently before: psychiatry/psychology have become the modern State-religions. We no longer burn people at the stake for being witches. Instead, we figuratively set them on fire for thinking in ways the rest of us–or more accurately the unreasonably powerful psychiatric/clinical psychology lobbies–deem inappropriate. All this despite our hollow rhetoric about personal and intellectual freedoms. I cannot agree with you more: we must all protect ourselves as best we can at ALL times. Unfortunately, as it probably was gravely dangerous to let slip a disbelief in god during the functional theocracy of the early Colonies, it is today often dangerous to let slip any comment betraying one’s commitment to one’s self-ownership and one’s disavowal of the absurd, unscientific postulating of the new church of professional psychology.

      Thanks, again, for your comment and for your patience with my reply. As always, I should also thank this blog owner for her courage in NOT censoring comments diametrically opposed to the prevalent, official policies and practice of modern psychology and psychiatry.

    • Paul says:

      Aiah, I thought that I would share with you the things that make me question life here in this country. It starts with the idea that others saying I know you feel pain, and it can’t be that bad. It is the condescending attitude that they have towards people, as a result quite honestly: The only thing that I see from them is that they most definitely do not want what is best for me or my family, nor do they have a clue to how many of the things that I and others have had to give up that we enjoy because we are no longer able to do them. There are a number of things that I live for in life, but to many of those people no matter how hard I had to work to get things, and how much they cost they call it all garbage. This is bascially calling me garbage, and I know that you and many others here know where I am going with this. Also I will admit that if at some point that one of these so called do gooders were to somehow get me locked up, I would loose everything on the earth that holds me here. I ask all how can this be helping anyone. I see day after day the increasing number of deaths from people that use pain medications, and to be honest I understand why, they have been cut back so far on medication that death looks better by a long shot to continued and increasing torture from unbearable pain. I would really like those that think all these people are abusing pain medications to never be allowed any, under any condition. They are not deserving of this life saving thing, as I would probably not be alive today if it were not for pain medications. There are other medications to help my other problems, but quite frankly I do not think our government wants people to enjoy life and have a reason to live that is why they are making it so difficult on people to get medications that allow people to live functional enjoyable lives.

    • Aiah says:

      Thanks, Paul, for your vulnerability and honesty. I empathize with everything you’ve said. As a physician, I can confirm that, at least here in the US, what you’ve shared about the distorting fear over habituation with effective pain medication is serious. Only roughly 2% to 5% of patients on subscription pain medication (opioids, benzodiazepines) develop dependency. But despite recent publications that implicate these drugs in increased morbidity among specifically elderly patients (cognitive and coordination problems), the fear of their effects drives poor pain management for very, very many patients. Nor are these drugs unique in their potential for major consequences. Other drugs wrongly assumed to be innocuous (like Ibuprofen and even Acetaminophen…) are statistically associated with major physiological complications with moderately-high, long-term use.

      You’re also right that for many patients, effective pain management becomes one of, if not the, most critical component of leading normal lives. This is an important issue; in our university’s studies on suicide, there is a significant and growing effect on decision-making attributable specifically (and independently) to poor pain management. Once the emotional and social effects secondary to injury (non-cancer states) are added into the association, it is clear that people are dying because they are in unbearable pain that ruins their lives.

      You are also right that, much like mental health professionals who cannot offer (some) patients effective relief from persistent and paralyzing emotional suffering, the medical establishment and the government callously offer vacuous “advice” to sufferers based on speculation about what should work–but which actual sufferers consistently report doesn’t. Worse, those for whom the advice doesn’t work often find themselves vilified as “difficult patients” or willing victims. The effects are populationally catastrophic though easy to ignore because unless someone is suffering grave pain, she/he doesn’t give it much thought. And by the time someone DOES become a chronic sufferer, it is often too late to advocate effectively.

      Most tragic about all this is that people must either endure years, decades even, of unabated pain simply because other human beings have decided for sufferers what is bearable, or sufferers must seek out their own relief. Our university’s government school and public health school did joint research showing that ineffective pain control drives a robust illicit drug market. This evidence is reproducible and global.

      Together, this should tell us two things: (1) despite even our best intentions, we (both psychological therapists and medical specialists) have NOT been able to sufficiently diminish pain in a large and growing proportion of our patients; and (2) deciding for others what suffering is bearable consigns many to lives so hellish they are willing to break federal law and risk legal and financial ruination to seek relief. They wouldn’t do this if we could/would offer them good enough alternatives. But yet still, professionals are using hackneyed and frankly irrelevant anecdotes about other people who were once close to suicide but survived and are happy today as justification for depriving others of free personal life choices.

      I hope you find relief and peace soon wherever you are. Thank you for adding your testimony.

  37. Lem says:

    You don’t have a clue if you aren’t living it! Especially if your husband and daughter want nothing to do with you!

  38. Dante says:

    I am so goddamned sick of that Kevin Hines story. It’s been more than 20 years of me wanting to die and having to hear about that response.

  39. Theresa says:

    Thank you for your comment. Since i found out i was born in the west indies with an american father who has cherokee ancestry. I am a mixture of all races and i have had only one doctor to actually help me with only three neds. One migraine called fiorecet as needed and hydrocodone as needed and diazapam for muscle spasms as needed. He retired early because of the government. He tried to fight for us chronic pain patients but the other docs were chicken. My pain was controlled and i was told to go ahead a fill every prescription and lock them up and i did and had 5 years of meds i never got dependent on until they forced me to take the crap every day. Now im on 9 prescriptions. My condtion flare up have progressed into now joint pain as well. I keep fighting but sometimes its hard. Damn this pain. I want to live but not suffering or slobbering all over myself. No im not sad nor depressed. Just relentless pain. Which my psych eval proved nothing wrong with me mentally Happy usually as long as i can control the pain in my body. Without this every single day pain. I make others smile. I am a CNA

    • paul says:

      Theresa, I belive you, and I am sorry for what you are going through. There are a few things that might help you such as moving to a country such as Netherlands or urogray one that is more conserned about harm than making things illigal. Also I seriously do wish that all of those that think the majority of people on pain are just drug addicts seeking drugs, every single one of them should feel all the pain of everyone that is unable to get relief from pain from those people in all countries. This quite honistly is probably too nice for most of them. They also should themselfs not be allowed any anestetics or pain killers for any reason. After all people should follow the rules they want all other people to live by instead of being treated as more equal than everyone else. Pain medicines in my view should be available to people in pain just as insulin is available to diebetics. They need it to improve their life, and normal people would only seek it for that. Also even for those that are able to get pain killers, quite often it is so low that people are no longer allowed to get much enjoyment out of life. Keep in mind I see the rights of those who want to abuse their bodies less than those who want to make the most of life. Pain meds do help people as they age, as aging alone is painful, so painful that it is not uncommon for the life of people to be far less in countries where pain relief is not available. If doctors and others were really serious about improving life people would be suffering far less, and I would not feel that I would be far better off with no doctors than what I am able to find near where I live. They want me to be miserable and non functional. My ADD is so bad that I am going to loose my medi cal coverage because I can’t figure out where and how to give them documentation about what my forms of income are. I do not worry, as doctors here will not even presctibe the correct asthma medication for me. I often spend more hours a day sleeping than awake, unless pain is keeping me awake. Such as the earache that I have had over a month. Since they will not help me with this I find what I can to help with the Infection. I know that Aleister Crowley died and was accused of all the drugs killing him. But he would have lived a few decades more if he could have got hold of things such as Marax and Ethromycin. The heroin that he used was started by doctors treating his caughing. Now we use codine for the same effect. I blame doctors and medication makers of the time for his heroin problem. He did not need that, as he was not using it for pain. That basically says the problem things are approved for a use, even though most of us would be medically better off with other things. Even if experimental than what is usually prescribed such as the asthma medication Advair, it is not to be used for people that have asthma attacks with mucus in their chest, but this is often ignored by doctors. All of this only is an issue because we allow doctors here to be the only ones that can prescribe, and quite honistly a pharmisist can do just as good if not better jub at doing that.

  40. Theresa says:

    Please dont misunderstand this. So many people including myself have chronic pain issues without cures. Think about waking up every day in a pain that drs dont believe is there because all test come back normal. So they assume its all in your mind so they send you to a psychiatrist and they put you on all these antidepressants which still the pain is there and instead of never been depressed a day in your life. Yes people get sad. A death in the family a marriage or relationship break up. It is truly makes you sad. Most people as like myself the sadness goes away after exceptance of this life changing experience. My father suffered with cancer and fought so hard to live but lost his battle. I was in church the following day not sad because we were expecting this outcome. I knew my Dad fought as hard as he could and yes i missed getting up that morning without him but he was not suffering anymore. He is the reason i am who I am today. I help those that can’t do for themselves anymore but i suffer also in Chronic pain for the past 20 years. My husband now has watched me suffer in so much pain. I beg God to take me home soon. Do i want to die of course not. I love every thing the sunshine on my face. Long walks around my neighborhood and going to the beach. Out on our boat. Cook outs. The night air and star gazing. I also love to write. So if chronic pain suffers cant get relief and my husband has watched drs put me on antidepressants and had to tell them not put his wife on any more because they do nothing but cause me to be depressed. He saved me from that nightmare and my evaluation the following visit was great. In moderate pain back then and no antidepressant. I had a great childhood loving parents and 20 years ago i caught a bad flu virus. It was def the flu and took the tamaflu med and soon was better. Then a couple of months later i started feeling over tired. So i added some vitamins changed my diet for a while. Then insomnia started. I had always had migraines as a child and also a slow digestive tract. They assume now that it was caused by my birth mother being poor and i was extremely malnutrition. My father and step mom took me to the states and i was never really ever sick. So depression did or hadnt started any of tbese pain conditions. I was super wife and mother but my second marriage broke up because of a dr. Telling my ex i was lying about being in pain. I was just being lazy. Even though xrays showed degenerative arthritis in my neck that would leave me in the bed staring at the ceiling because my head was so heavy it hurt to lift it off a pillow and on occassions i have use a soft neck brace when my neck gets inflamed. Then an mri showed two bulging disk in low back. That was found after i couldnt walk myself to the bathroom one morning. I can handle both those issues and the migraines at once without anything but some advil. At least back in the day i could. I dont like medications and i def hate to have a needle poked me to ease my pain off. Before my son was born i found at 20 weeks i needed to terminate my pregnancy so they could deal with my cervical cancer. My child had a chance and i believed Jesus could and would save us both so i got procedures done to keep cutting away at my cervics and ended up on bedrest the remainder of my pregnancy from june 15th to aug 5. I spent in the hospital due to constant hemorhaging. Horrible because arthritis stffens a body up if you are not allowed to get up and move around and in very terrible pain so a team of physicians had to find sometbing safe for my baby that i could take. I didnt know the difference between an opiet or asprin to be honest back then. I just knew i trusted my docs. They had me on a narcotic and while in the hospital i got to go home for two hours before the bleeding started and passed out on the comode and back to the hospital. I had started feeling tbis pain all over my body in the hospital. I thought it was because i wasnt my active self anymore. I had five kids at home and missed home terribly. My son was born the 3rd induced labor to save both of us. Something was seen on the ultrasound. So they gave me the shots to speed up his lungs but only one matured fully. One had some catching up to do. He stayed in nicu for 12 days and they made me nest because they tested me for drugs the day of admission the social worker said and i tested positive for opiets. I asked her what was an opiet. She called me a liar and i asked to be released immediately. I asked her which day of admission and i said lady did you even read my chart because if you had all drugs came from that hospital that they had given me day of admission was the same day i was released for two hours i was away from their staff. I was labeled because no body fully read my chart. Also because of a nurse mixing up urine samples i got another label. Believe it or not but it happens and they wouldnt retest me either. Which was so unfair. With trying to work in pain losing my family because of someones elses opinions and mistakes. I think if a person is in chronic pain and its constant and it burts just to move. We should have a right to end it. Im still fighting fibromyalgia and the flare ups are getting worse and no do i want to die. No i am like so many suffering endlessly and i can handle pain two kids no drugs 8 kidney stones. But fibro pain is all over the body. It never ends. You only get partial relief from it but flare ups its an er visit. So im still not depressed. This is my life and im still fighting but i pray God takes me home soon because its worse than having a baby. At least you lnow that pain ends. So dont judge medical issues you dont unferstand or test dont show it. God knows i want to live just in a little less pain. Dont blame all pain issues you cant find on depression. Suicide will definely be on the rise the for chronic pain patients because drs dont have the balls to fight for us against congress and the stats are wrong. The cdc doubled the opiet epidemic. Its heroine and fentanil killing our people in the US. That woman on tbe news said her son started with pain pills from her cabinet. I doubt it. I am sorry for their loss but everyone knows what goes on in high school and omg really the college parties. I live in a college and beach town. These kids when they get caught they arnt going to tell on their dealers. Has the whole country lost their mind God gave them. Why go to college all those years to practice medicine and try to cure folks and if they cant at least make their life as comfortable as possible so they have some quality of life. I just lost a fibro friend. Her fight is over. Mine will be over. I have a great busband now. My children are grown and just trying to enjoy my grandbabies. Fibro pain does progress then they give you a new diagnosis complex pain syndrome. Have a wonderful nigjt.

  41. Brittany says:

    Hey friends I know how it feels wanting to die and give up I had many of those times. I was in boarding school, lonely, no friends, bullied, grandparents would not let me go out to the movies or anything just study for school, I did not have my parents only calling them. I know how you feel it hurts like there are no words. But I am a living testimony friends. I wanted to do a lot of things I do not want to write them because it might give you ideas but I know what it feels to be empty crying where no one is listening, want love and attention. Oh I was there. 🙁 I am here to talk to you guys please if you are thinking of suicide please get help call the suicide lines. Your life is soooooooooooooo precious. There are many things that we do not understand why things happen but if you hold on it will work out. I am here for you guys, to be a friend, pray for you. I know how it feels trust me. <33333333 email me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com

  42. Brittany says:

    here took it from the author If you need immediate help, please call 911 or the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1.800.273.8255 (TALK) in the U.S., or the emergency services in your area if you live elsewhere. You can also check out the Resources page for a list of other places where you can receive help by phone, text, email, or online chat.

  43. Anonymous says:

    It comes and goes, but not really. I mean, the desire to die, at least for me, is always there. It’s just sometimes it’s quiet enough that I’m not actively thinking about doing something about it. If I ever got the nerve to really do it and someone stopped me … I mean, I know it would make that person feel really great about themselves, but what about me? Then I’m back to living in this hell every day. Is that person who “saved” me going to help? Going to make my life more bearable? No, they are off feeling that they “saved” someone and are a hero and I’m left here to suffer.

    • Tom H says:

      I very much appreciate your comment in particular because it addresses something staunch anti-suicide advocates fail to. While SOME people who at one point were suicidal express gratitude for others’ intervention and for having survived, this is just not true about all people who were unsuccessful at committing suicide. More to the point, the assumption that the risks of perturbing people like you are worth it because most (assumption) suicidal people are glad not to have succeeded in their attempts is statistically unfounded, as we are learning is true of very, very much “psychological research,” because, for one thing, many of the reports of how people feel post-intervention are lost to distant follow-up. Yet more, other reviews of psychology dogma disclose strong professional and individual therapist evaluative biases that transfer onto both patient and the community at large–we tend to accept and echo professionals’ sentiments even when, otherwise, these are not authentically our own because we feel these professionals are “right” so we should follow their lead. Worse, many of these professionals’ sentiments are scientifically and philosophically untenable.

      You are ultimately correct: “it would make that person feel really great about themselves, but what about me? Then I’m back to living in this hell every day. Is that person who ‘saved’ me going to help? Going to make my life more bearable? No, they are off feeling that they ‘saved’ someone and are a hero and I’m left here to suffer.” Absolutely NO human being–president, physician, therapist, law enforcer, court official…–should have the power to impose moral or life-evaluative judgments on another free adult citizen. It baffles my mind that educated adults in this Western society founded on ideas of personal liberty presume otherwise.

      Thanks for the reminder and best of luck to you.

    • Paul says:

      Anonymous, I do get what you are saying. There is a reason that you are suffering and it is even without knowing you it is because you do not have enough money to solve the problem or are not in an area that people of low means are able to even get help. The God in the USA is not one in heaven even if heaven were here on earth. The God often worshiped is Mammon or as many know it money. This is just a fact of life for all of us, and does go against the ten commandments in the bible and against the Quran as well. I only mention this as it does help to explain why you, me and many others in this world suffer, even Buddha said that life itself is suffering, as for one thing to live something else suffers. That is why a religious sect called Jain does not eat meat, they do not want to cause the suffering of animals for their benefit. I mention all this about suffering to help explain the human condition, All animal life on this planet eats something, and humans are no exceptions. However humans are the only ones on this planet that feed off of the suffering of other humans. This is not usually done by killing, but when the killing happens it is usually with knifes, guns, hammers, poisons, it can be the result of wars declared or undeclared. We often feed off of the work of others. This is for the most part done in a socially acceptable way and when not is sometimes ends in prison for the offenders. I ask you are you doing it because you see yourself as part of the natural life cycle of humans that is found acceptable by many, or by some untreated illness that is best treated in locations where people care more about life than a quick buck. If it is because you see yourself as part of the cycle of suffering and it is not related to pain, there is hope in Jainism and other faiths that are about ending suffering, if not your best hope is to sell all the things you can and move to a place where you are accepted if you have any will to live and get help, or as you stated death. If that is the case consider moving to Oregon as they have doctor assisted suicide there, and as part of the program there they are required to do what they can to end your suffering first, and then it is all your choice beyond that. I think that is a great thing that they are required to help those that are in pain instead of like most places just let people suffer to the point where death is a persons best option. When a state does not look at ending suffering first, they are promoting death as that is the ultimate result of being more worried about addiction, money and so forth than human life. They say that they are pro-life, but to me and many others it looks like they are pro-death. I realize and others as well that it is not normal to prefer death and suicide, unless the suffering is great and they are given really no other option. As such I am saying that as a result of policies and the way they are carried out they are promoting suicide, and it is not people preferring it to life because they were given the best options. I know in Star Trek, there is a saying “Live long and Prosper”, However a much better saying is “Live well and Prosper” as a long life with only suffering to the extreme is as you say worse than death. I hope that you can find what you need to life a well life, even though it is not all that easy to find it where you live you may find it elsewhere. This is the main reason that people are all over the planet, they move to where life is better for them.

    • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

      “We won’t help you die, but we won’t help you live.”

      Government doesn’t want to lose its investment in you, but it also doesn’t put enough into prevention or cure… just some crappy SSRIs that turn you into a ghost, if they do anything at all. Therapy is a distant hope for the UK’s NHS… waiting times are so long that depressive episodes (if you have not had too many episodes) would spontaneously resolve, even without medication.

      Trust in mental health services is so low… and with good reason. Risk avoidance is high in socialised medicine and litigious societies, as if a patient does not have a choice, he is stuck with the same doctor whether or not he takes a risk… his doctor therefore will not take risks.

      Classical medications like MAOIs can really bring a person back to life, even with severe depression… but they are so hard to get because a doctor doesn’t want to be sued if you kill yourself with them.

      The more episodes of depression you have, the less likely it is you will ever recover… and will have more and worse episodes that last longer each time. It has to be stopped in the first episode, with heavy duty medication and therapy, to prevent any future episodes and to give the best chance at maintaining a fulfilling life.

      Don’t worry, though. Your saviour will feel good for a lifetime about saving you… even if your life then is a shitshow that never seems to end.

  44. rm says:

    my personal 2 cents as some one who feels suicide is a personal choice, a living beings right to not only choose how its own light goes out, but the degree of dignity it wishes to maintain while doing so:

    my flesh, my rights

    end of story =p

    -rm

  45. Oldntired Downandout says:

    There is never a day or a hour of any day with my pain and family such as they are that I don’t wish I was just dead and it was over because basically for me it is over. The only thing that keeps me standing is my granddaughter and I fear she has little hope because of the enabling ways of her Grandfather, his family, her crazy meth-head addicted to whatever-Mother with ODD and ADHD-no help for sick elderly-they just look for reasons to make us suffer and we are at deaths door now. I was productive once, I was a nurse and I saw this start happening. I don’t think there is any hope for this country and little for the human race. I just love my granddaughter so much I keep trying to see something good. I worry her world will be much worse than this. Those of you who live life blindly tell me how you do it??? I hope if there is a hell, the greedy drug companies, insurance companies, big banks and hospitals get the ghettos of hell. Leave suicidal people alone because they probably know best for them and have given it way more thought than most of you can face death to do.

    [This comment was edited to abide by the Comments Policy. – SF]

    • rm says:

      just because i was in the neighbourhood, Old & Down:

      hope for the best, do what you feel is right, realize that all actions make ripples in a pond

      and try your best to feel the suns warmth on your face, even on a rainy shitty day

      <3

  46. Jose says:

    Corrections for auto correct and not concentrating. It’s not all mental, my physical health has impacted all areas of my mental health and it’s just bad enough that’s it’s physical alone. It’s very draining. Yup, agree Rob, Paul and Tom

    • Paul says:

      I hear you Jose, there are many others like you. However there are ways of getting help, and one way is going into clinics and try different ones. The main thing when talking with doctors is never to say that you are thinking of killing yourself. Do not tell them that you are even considering suicide as they will only think that you have mental problem and that suicidal thought is your problem, that is because most doctors only focus on one problem as part of their training and mental conditioning, when the best of all doctors look at the whole person. All things that are off can often cause the onset and increased problems with other things. All of this is known and is in medical literature. It is also on many medical related websites. I have personally been treating many of my medical problems for years, as I have waited hours at locations only to be told to come back the next day (i did not, as I was in severe pain and started what I knew would solve the inflammation causing the problem, sinusitis colitis and a number of other chronic illnesses are best not treated with pain medications, but other things instead such as antibiotics and anti-inflammatory medications usually done by injection. Antibiotics have no effect on a viral infection, but a bacterial infection that often occurs as a result of the viral infection that decreased the effectiveness of the immune system.). With the posts that I have made in the past it should be obvious that I care about myself and others. Also I see it as a crime to promote suffering of people to line the pockets of the ultra-rich. Also this is more of a problem because there is more of a concern about abuse of drugs than about the untreated things in the life of people. I am not the first to say just like you that there are many things that cause chronic pain, but I disagree with you on one thing you are saying that none understand it. You my friend are going to the wrong doctors. Doctors that are unwilling to take the time to find the cause of your pain, and many times there is severe pain with no cause that can be seen on any x-ray, ct scan or MRI. However an MRI will show abnormalities that often do cause severe chronic pain that are not viable by any other means. That still does not include things such as phantom pain from an amputated limb that often occurs and can be measured with proper tests. All causes of pain can be seen with proper testing. The only reason yours has not been found comes down to only one thing and that is cost. You are going to locations that have no concern for your life, they only are looking at dollar signs. If you can find a hospital that is run by a church they are more likely to help you, and the same for some of the major inner city hospitals in places such as Los Angeles. They help people that can’t afford the care, and the ability to get proper medical care varies by state. Also there are some hospitals that are the worst of the worst. There is one near me, as they do not know how to even put down my proper sex on the paperwork and they put down a few medications that I use as what I am allergic to when I know that there never was any allergic response to those medications. Also from your name I am wondering if you have tried the consulate of Mexico and see if they can find someone to help you with your UN-diagnosed problem causing you pain. Also keep in mind many doctors do not receive enough training in pain management to give you a proper diagnosis. You need the correct doctors to help you.

    • Theresa says:

      Please fight as long as you can to live. I suffer so with chronic pain and i want to live just with a little quality of life. Im not depressed have no mental issues but i have so many chronic pain issues. I want to be your friend not ur hero. Just soft hugs because with my disease thats all i can do most of the time.

  47. Jose says:

    It’s not mental. What about when it is chronic pain that no one really understands to try and figure out. Agree with Paul wrote on (about governments, though he stated US, control, money, that we’re just a coin) 19/01/18. Also Tom H, and I’m too tired and forgetting what am saying. I am 35 and suffering unpredictable disabling pain. I would rather have no life than this quality.

    • Paul says:

      I have lived with chronic pain for about a decade, and the only thing that I can see that comes is more pain and more difficulty getting enough relief from the pain to be able to breath properly and walk somewhat normally. Anymore there is less and less reasons for me to even be here. It is not that I want to die, it is I want to put an end to the suffering that is forced on me and so many others. In addition to the corruption that rules this world. I hear many religious groups talk about hell, and I have thought about it myself. I can honestly say that hell is an improvement to the live that many of us live here on this earth. That is because in hell we are punished for the evil that we do, and here on earth we are punished for the evil that others do, and not so much what we do. If you are basically good, hell is better than here. What people need to keep in mind is that the most dangerous are the ones that create the laws and write the history. I will say that one of the reasons I have no children is that I would not want a child of mine to grow up worse off than me, and to suffer things in childhood that I did not as a child because of control freaks.

      Also I read and hear about people being worried about drug dealers, I can say that they are quite often easy people to get along with and are more open with people about what they are getting into more than doctors are when it comes to using the medications that they prescribe. I have not bought from drug dealers, but have known a number of them personally over the years. The reason they exist is that they are filling a market where one exists. They are basically the pharmacist to those that can’t afford to get medical help for their problems from regular doctors. Taking all kinds of tests means lots of money out of pocket, that did not in the not too far past. It was affordable in the past to get x-rays and other tests, but not anymore. I was born without medical coverage, and all of the costs including the hospital were under $300, but now days that could easily be $60000 or more. Most people do not have the ability to pay what is asked of them. I can now see why people would rather die than go on, if life is nothing but endless suffering. Even The Church of Satan does not promote suicide, they say the only reason for one to end their life is to end the endless suffering, with no possibility of it ending. In other words, if someone is not able to get any enjoyment out of life, and that there is no possibility of any enjoyment of life in the future. Why Christians and others are promoting suffering of the masses is beyond me, when Christ is a healer. We really could use someone like Christ today, ones that are healers. Right now in medicine it is about treatment time and time again instead of healing to get as much money as possible off of each and everyone of us. I say that life was given to us to enjoy and enjoy it with others, but quite often we are too often prevented from doing so by laws that we are told are put into place to so called protect us. That is a lie that not even the devil himself would say, but many accept it as fact. I’m not sure how much longer I will be around, as I am here more for those I care about than myself anymore. Also we live in a world where it is acceptable to bear false witness against people, as lies are perfectly acceptable as a form of extortion in this world. Only way we could have Heaven here on earth is to live a great life without the need for money. This is what many have said in the past, and there are some trying to make it a reality here on earth now. The main thing that needs to happen is that all things mandated upon us, should not need to be paid by us, but those that are mandating them. Republicans talk about no unfunded mandates, then turn around and force them upon us, and same with the democrats.

  48. Paul says:

    Stacy, I have been thinking about what it would take for most normal people to not think of ever committing suicide, but I do not believe that our elected officials in our country will ever allow it, and that is for people to be treated fairly, and allow them to be able to at the very least be able to care for their own selves. We now live in a world that has far more concern for rules and laws to regulate people than allowing them to be able to be functional and care for themselves. Why would our ancestors for over 100,000 years of self medicating be a crime? That is because our lives really no longer matter, and we know this. If our lives really mattered we would be able to learn to provide for ourselves in all ways. Now days it is a crime to do much of the things that our ancestors did to stay alive that harms none. Since this is the case I see far less than I used to and will look the other way when there is no personal benefit for me to do anything else. I see the Mafia, and local gang members as a non threat to me compared to the FDA. Also I am sure that many other people now days feel the same way.

    • Tom H says:

      Paul, you wrote, “I have been thinking about what it would take for most normal people to not think of ever committing suicide, but I do not believe that our elected officials in our country will ever allow it, and that is for people to be treated fairly, and allow them to be able to at the very least be able to care for their own selves.” I agree with you wholeheartedly. I’ve been arguing something similar, which is that rather than forcefully committing individuals intent on committing suicide as a way to “protect” them (all the while subjecting them to horrific so-called medical treatments against their will and removing their other freedoms from them), the psychiatric community (and therapists–anyone, really–can also begin the “civil commitment” process with a simple threatening phone call to the authorities) together with the rest of the community ought to work on making our communities places people WANT to stay alive to keep experiencing. But, of course, human civilizations can’t do that yet. Or we don’t want to. There are people who enjoy hurting others and our governments, despite their rhetoric, care more about money and power than citizens’ quality of life. Nor can we stop people from reasoning that other inevitable life challenges are worth it. Some, for example, simply don’t want to face the horrors of old age–chronic pains; worsening diseases; the indignity of being increasingly discounted; the loss of autonomy; frequent financial disaster, and abandonment by family, friends, and community just to name a few.

      So why are we acting shocked that some people would rather die than experience chronic poverty, or have to work for decades in fields they hate while their bodies suffer injuries and ongoing pain for low wages–just because of competition? Why are we so surprised that some of the undesirables among us who have the SAME desires for affection and intimacy and companionship but who, through no behavioral fault of their own, have been relegated to the scrapheap of humanity would prefer not to live than to suffer every single day from unabated loneliness which we already know is profoundly painful? Why are these professionals demanding that others live lives no one would choose for their children and which no one wants for her-/himself?

      I’ve read some of these professionals’ personal recountings of their own experiences with suicidal thoughts. While I sympathize with their own experiences of pain and applaud their desire to help people, their reasoning that we should ALWAYS intervene to prevent suicide is as irrational as a woman who had an abortion and later regretted it reasoning that under all circumstances all other women should NOT be allowed to have abortions. If the latter scenario is indefensible, I would like to know why the former is not. I just cannot fathom that reasonably educated human beings would believe that life can always be fixed well enough that others won’t prefer to be dead than to live. This should be among the most elementary inferences. In the meantime, while the anti-suicide pundits make it harder and harder for people to leave hellish lives that do NOT get better, they are damning human beings to choose the most gruesome, painful, and lonely ways out of life because many lack the medical competence to do otherwise.

      Thanks for adding your voice to a growing international debate that at last more national governments are paying attention to and acting, thankfully, on behalf of personal freedom.

  49. Brittany says:

    Remember you matter. There is Nothing in this world that is worth taking your precious life: death, being in debt, getting hurt, losing someone, being sick, anything you are dealing with its not worth it, its all temporary and you will get through it. Its a phase. I will care if you die :(((((( please Just loveeee yourself and love others. ♡♡♡ forgive yourself and do something for someone. Email me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com
    because you matter and I care for you. I am here to listen to you, i am here to cry for you. I am here to pray for you. YOU MATTER!!!! ♡♡♡♡♡♡

    • Rob says:

      No, it is not all temporary. Some of us have chronic medical conditions that don’t go away, and make life miserable.

      • Anon says:

        I’m never sure if these replies get to the right comments so excuse the cut-N-paste… Rob (January 14, 2018 at 3:51 pm):

        I agree wholeheartedly. There are many philosophical and scientific problems with the anti-suicide platform, regardless of an individual’s experience with suicidal ideation. I think most of us wish life were such that no one considered suicide. And most of us recognize that life requires good coping strategies. But none of that changes the fact that life can be onerous and exceed the capacity of many to cope, even with professional intervention. There is never a guarantee that any therapy will work. Never. It’s hypocritical of people to claim they care while, recognizing both that they can’t guarantee an end to others’ suffering AND that therapy cannot either, damning others to prolonged, chronic suffering. Yes, many may “get better,” though there are many problems with that presumption, too. But many also do not. And communities are NOT obliged to care for those who’re suffering. Look at all the global reports about the spreading epidemic of painful chronic loneliness and all the physical diseases scientists attribute to it. So adults should ultimately be allowed access to painless, medically competent/efficient ways to leave life if this is our persistent choice. After all, unless every newborn is a slave to the State or the community, the sole thing we should have absolute ownership claims to, irrespective others’ beliefs, is our own lives.

    • Anonymous says:

      None of us matter

  50. Lee says:

    I’m so ready to get my life over with not that I’m depressed or anything I’m headed for financial disaster and I want to be cremated and I have money just little but can at least have myself cremated and don’t want to be a burden on family but they always want me put in a hospital or some stupid shit and that’s not going to solve the problem at all

    • Chad N. says:

      Lee

      I’m not dismissing your concern over your financial disaster but I have a hard time seeing that as a reason I would consider dying. Money isn’t that important in my opinion. I prefer family which it sounds like you have. I realize they don’t understand the problem but maybe that can change. I know reasons for seeking an end can be complicated and trying to simplify them for others to understand seems easiest but it undermines your argument. That is why I’m doing the formal euthanasia route, getting evaluated and letting the DR try treatments then documenting the failings, or who knows maybe successes. I just want to make sure I’m not missing something in my decision. I hope I am and I hope you might be too. Life should have meaning, I just thought I’d say family seems like meaning.

      • Anon says:

        Chad, I hope you don’t mind me adding my two cents. You wrote, ” I know reasons for seeking an end can be complicated and trying to simplify them for others to understand seems easiest but it undermines your argument. ” I disagree that someone’s argument for rejecting life can be “undermined” so long as the reasons given are personal. Lee’s reasons for wanting to leave are his perceptions of the consequences of “financial ruin” on him. Given poverty is real and people suffer significantly from it, it is reasonable to be terrified of sliding into poverty. Someone else may not fear it but THAT doesn’t invalidate another person’s perspective of poverty and whether he wants to experience it.

        I do appreciate you’ve shared how YOU believe you would feel if you were headed for financial ruin. But surely other people can feel radically differently AND just like the way different people choose to take or leave certain types of music or food, someone else can decide for reasons that matter only to him life is just not worth it. Absent an objective reason such thinking must be “wrong,” and I’ve never come upon such a reason, this type of thinking isn’t the sort of reasoning that can be “valid” or “invalid.” This is really the crux of this whole social debate, but no one is seriously addressing it. To be clear, I’m not advocating any particular choice regarding suicide. I’m arguing that the only opinion that really matters on the matter is that of the person thinking about his or her own life.

      • Chad N. says:

        Anon

        You’re two cents is welcome but we’re saying the same thing. There’s more than just “financial difficulties” going on. The difference being I warned that leaving it at that will allow others to dismiss his assertion or in your case put words in his mouth (assuming Lee is male, sorry if I’m wrong). It’s an honest reaction to being given a difficult topic and limited information.

        Lee

        My point was this. For the people that matter to you provide more detail. It might make it so you don’t go through this alone, may help them know it’s not a fleeting overreaction and could help you feel at peace going forward. At least it has done those to varying degrees for me as another considering death as a better option than life. I’m sorry all I can offer is that advice and I hope you find some value in it.

    • Tom H says:

      Chad N: We are NOT saying the same thing. You wrote, “There’s more than just ‘financial difficulties’ going on.” I wrote that Lee is the only one who can determine what factor or factors make his life worthwhile to him. He has already stated he does not want to experience financial disaster. That is a sufficient reason for HIM. No further justification is required. It is his life and his to judge and his to decide on. He shouldn’t need to explain what others perceive to be something else going on. If the state offered a painless way for people to end our lives, I’d expect specialists to ask us to provide an explanation as a test of our rationality. But there can be no philosophical justification for a judgment that is fundamentally a personal taste.

      • Chad N. says:

        Tom H/Anon?: We ARE saying the same thing. I am just saying more things than the one. I agree only he can decide if his life is worth living to him. I do not deny that and it is the basis of my decision to seek the end of my own life. No further justification is required but that doesn’t mean that one might not attempt to be provided in the right situation. Nothing in my original post negated his original claim I only expressed that my reaction would be different. I did add advice that I hoped might help should he be trying to explain his choice to the family that he stated he has. I am inferring that he has tried and had difficulty doing so in the past given his statement of “they always want me put in a hospital or some stupid shit” in the context of solving “the problem.” Again that was just advice presented as my opinion thus not negating his own. I didn’t tell him what to do or judge him for what he stated he wanted to do. Unless you are offended at me stating I have hope we both might find a reason to live or me expressing my own desire for a family I do not understand your issue with my initial posting.
        Your extract from my second posting, “There’s more than just ‘financial difficulties’ going on.”, is logically analogous to your statement of ,“Lee’s reasons for wanting to leave are his perceptions of the consequences of “financial ruin” on him.”, as you stated REASONS not REASON as he had originally. I too assumed there was more but you went a step further by adding “Given poverty is real and people suffer significantly from it, it is reasonable to be terrified of sliding into poverty.” If you will notice, I stated I believed there to be more while you added details to his condition that did not come from him. YOU put words in HIS mouth and made assumptions on HIS reasons. This is exactly what I was trying to help him avoid should he try to talk to his family again. When faced with a lack of information most people make it up to fill in the blanks just like you did. That was all I was trying to explain. Thank you for demonstrating it.

    • Tom H says:

      Chad N: You wrote, “I know reasons for seeking an end can be complicated and trying to simplify them for others to understand seems easiest but it undermines your argument.” Even if the “your” is general & not specific (meant for the person you’re addressing), that is a claim, minimally, of argument validity. There are no valid aesthetic or moral evaluative arguments. On re-reading Lee’s statement, I see it may not even be financial ruination that motivates his desire to end his life. It is extremely likely that whatever we tell others, or don’t, they will augment what we tell them with their own perceptions and reasons because, regardless what we say, others do not have our experiences, feelings, or thoughts. My gripe is with the supposition of undermining, not what others may envision on hearing what is being said–what I believe to be inevitable.

      I reject the claim that I am putting words in the original speaker’s mouth. I made claims about poverty in general and made an argument about someone else assessing financial disaster. On re-reading Lee’s comment, I don’t know how financial disaster affects his reasoning about suicide, but it isn’t important because his argument is dependent on a subjective evaluation. Again, my gripe is with claims about undermining personally evaluative arguments. On reading your comment back to me, I still maintain we are not saying the same thing.

      It’s not my intention, here of all places, to have a back-and-forth comment battle. Thanks for remaining civil despite our disagreement. Best of luck to you.

  51. Gee says:

    In fact – To whom has written this article could you email me please? GEnuinely think this is something to be advocated for…….IS there anyone who is from UK who would like to possibly formulate a group to provide freedom to choose or can redirect me so ideas can be contributed? Is there anyone here who is rich? I genuinely think so many people could be helped and I think this would be a good business model – BEFORE anyone says ethics,,,,,,,liabilty waivers and agreements can be written up.

    Not everyone can afford dignitas it seems to die peacefully and without big drama will be reserved for those who can afford switzerland or canada!!!

    But definately a HUGE need for such a business and it could be done so smoothly.

    • Anon says:

      Even if I COULD afford Dignitas, I wouldn’t use them. What an insult to so many constantly struggling with the costs of living AND a system designed to benefit the wealthy at the expense, often, of the poor to find that even the act of dying, often in response to financial injustices, requires thousands of dollars. You can’t even get off this rock without hassle.

      • Andrew Williams (AndrooUK) says:

        So, you’ll stick it to the man by not taking advantage of the services of Dignitas? They are filling a hole in the market… but they can’t do it for free.

        You can take out a loan or credit cards if you’re planning to off yourself. Stick it to the man of those heartless financial lenders who make profit from nothing. They are insured and will pass on their costs to their other chumps, I mean, customers.

  52. Gee says:

    I think that there should be a suicide program whereby those who are suicidal can sign up, donate organs ( which would stop organ harvesting, lower donor lists) and do £10,000 death payout fee. Personally think its disgusting that dignitas charge £8,000 not including other fees and charges so its higher than £8,000

    SO instead of people just dying, they are able to leave a small lump sum behind ( can be used to cover funeral costs ,clear debts ** haha not that debt would even be relevant but catch my gist? Help others with their organ donation who WANT to live(which would help so called donor list problem) and person who sign up finally get well deserved peace for themselves!!!!

    People dont understand the exhaustion of having to suffer and bear our personal struggles for others is what makes this depression cycle worse. There are some people who GENUINELY dont mind leaving this ‘life’ place behind – its mundane if you are able to see a bigger picture. Most are too closed minded to view death as a bad thing, when it really is just you being reborn elsewhere……Weird to know that we, all have died already before and just cant remember how and whens……Does time exist? Instead of forcing people to endure there could be a logical system set up where EVERYONE wins 🙂 We need to start question why they dont want us to die,,,,,,,, they want us to work to death!!!!!! longer we are here longer we can pay tax. Its always been a money game folks and dont expect churches to tell you – they are in on it too!!!!!!!!!! Encourage procreation so slave race continues

    Are we growing plants or do the plants grow us? Who REALLY eats who?

    • paul says:

      Interesting that someone wants the organs from someone that commits suicide. If I was going to end my life I guarentee that I would not want anyone to benefit from it. As the only reason that I would end my life is because life is nothing but suffering caused by others. Why should anyone that causes me suffering benefit from my death?

      • Anon says:

        To: paul
        January 10, 2018 at 8:04 pm

        Paul, I totally agree with you. Thanks for having the guts to say what I bet a lot of us are feeling but dare not say aloud.

      • Chad N. says:

        I’m actually working to find a doctor in Belgium so that I can be euthanized. Even so I see no issues with donating organs. Yes I don’t enjoy life but others do. Yes some of those others are related to why I don’t enjoy life but not all. Trying to paint the picture that the rest of the world is all directly related to your low quality of life seems at the least a little overly dramatic to me. How much interaction have you had with the undiscovered tribes in Papua New Guinea? If none then your argument has at least one small hole, if a lot then write a book about it and you’ll be famous.

    • Anonymous says:

      I assure you when I’m dead, I want to be gone from this world completely. No one is having any bodily part of mine.

    • Chad N. says:

      Ok…. organ donation from euthanasia is likely I’d say. Getting paid for it is not due to ethics and the definition of “donation”. If you want to profit off of pain and suffering that’s fine, go to med school or something in law.

  53. Chad N. says:

    Ms. Freedenthal,

    Thank you for reopening this article for comment. I’m sure that it weighs on you but for whatever it’s worth I feel you have built a good forum here.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Thank you, Chad. I appreciate your comment! It does weigh on me, which I wrote about here: https://www.speakingofsuicide.com/2017/08/17/speaking-of-suicide-within-limits/

      Thanks again!

    • Brittany says:

      Chad please dont end your life. You matter to me and so many others. Message me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com. Please it is not worth it. What is going on? I am hear to listen. Anyone else reading this. I love you all and care for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      • Chad N. says:

        Brittany

        Thank you for your consideration but the issue isn’t me mattering to another. It is me mattering to myself. I am just finally valuing what I want out of life and just did so too late. If it might help look at it this way; God made me and made me as I am so who am I to try to divert his will. I simply hope I can fulfill the purpose for me and be done with this life as soon as he will allow. I’m taking it on faith that there is some purpose. Pray for me if it helps you, but remember to pray for yourself as well.

    • Puck says:

      Something that has been upsetting me for sometime is that I feel that many doctors and the FDA want me dead, as I have breathing problems and I am unable to get a doctor to write a prescription for what will help me, as they are worried that it might cause me to have a heart attack in 10 to 20 years. Quite frankly I would rather take a medication that is 100% guarenteed to kill me in 10 to 20 years than have the breathing and helplessness and problems being able to think clearly enough to even be able to put my recepts togeather so I can get my taxes filed. If the tax collector for the state of california takes my home I will not only be ending my life a few others as well, as all of this could easily be solved by proper medications. Am I suppose to go to local drug dealers and buy them what ever that they might want so i can function enough to be able to think at the same level that I was able to just 10 years prior. I really do not care much about the world anymore, as I can see that I am wanted dead, that is other than my parents, friends and business contacts that I have been building for the last 20 years so I can earn enough to live on, but if I am so messed up by lack of proper medicines what is really the point of even living. I did not get my Christmas present that being WWIII as that is most likely the only way that I could possibly have my problems solved, and those that enjoy me suffering get theirs.

  54. Cass says:

    i know how it feels to be in pain every day, it seems like i dnt deserve anything good. things never stop getting worse for me. i wish i had the guts to end it all i wish i knew how to do it. life seems like a neverending torture 🙁

    • Chantell says:

      I feel the exact same.

    • Puck says:

      I know how you feel, as I am in pain every day, and the only things that come to mind is that the reason that we suffer is that we are not the kind of people that support the prison industrial complex that is run by private prisons. They are in support of those that commit felonies against the public far more than those that just need medications to be functional in life. I will admit that I would have never thought 10 years ago that I would be saying much that I do now, about how much that even though I had followed Satan for a number of years that I look forward to the coming of Christ, Ragnarok, or what ever you want to call it because as a species we are a paracite on the face of this planet. We have killed off many species in the promotion of our own life, and now days we are predators on our very own species and actually support this, and say lies that we do not.
      You my friend have nothing wrong with you other than the fact that you are another human of poor design that breaks down prematurely and are unable to get medications and care that will allow you to enjoy the rest of your natural life.
      Ever read about the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah? Those are the kind of places that we live in our world today, and I am not talking about gay, as that is not an abomination, but preying on your own kind is, and that is the world that we live in today.

  55. Anonymous says:

    I want to suicide.

    • Callidora says:

      And why??

    • David says:

      To be brutally honest no one needs to give you a reason why if that’s what they’ve decided. That being said it seems like she/he wants someone to ask but who knows.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Anonymous,

      It’s sad you want to die by suicide. I hope you will check out the Speaking of Suicide Resources page for a list of places you can get immediate help for suicidal thoughts, by phone, email, or text.

    • Brittany says:

      are you okay 🙁 you can talk about whats going on. I know this worlds hard to live in. Your in my prayers

  56. Annoyed says:

    What a load of sanctimonious tripe. Just because YOU were able to recover and see life as worth living, doesn’t mean that applies to others. You are imposing your will on others. What you advocate for is cruel. If someone wants to die and hasn’t responded to treatment, LET THEM

    • Pieter says:

      A sincere question.

      Can someone please articulate the reasons for making suicide illegal?

      I have never understood the moral or legal reasons for people wanting to check out of this mortal coil when they choose to. For people with terminal illnesses, this is a no-brainer (and should be for their loved ones, too). Why anyone would want anyone else to suffer, not to mention the exorbitant amount of money that is wasted trying to eke out a few more breaths of life, is beyond me.

      But I also mean why do we have a problem with someone who simply doesn’t want to live anymore? WHY force someone to stay at a party they don’t want to be at? Seriously. We advocate for personal choice in almost every other aspect of life, particularly medical aspects (abortion, organ donation, drug use, consumption), so why are we uncomfortable with suicide? If there’s any way help can be offered then by all means, then the individual should grab it with both hands. But if they feel they are beyond help & they feel there’s no other way, then the choice is very much up to them.

      Hopefully, like other specious moral issues from yesteryear (gay marriage, gender issues, marijuana etc) we will quickly get past this arbitrary and bogus moral roadblock.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Pieter,

        Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I want to clarify that suicide isn’t illegal in the U.S.. If someone attempts suicide and survives, they will not be charged with a crime. (That is, they won’t be charged with a crime if they didn’t commit another crime in the process; I recall some years back that someone attempted suicide by parking their car on train tracks. The train derailed, killing some passengers, and the suicidal person, who survived, was charged in their deaths.)

        I think I articulate in my post my reasons for preventing suicide. Here’s the shortened version: Many suicidal people change their minds and later are glad they didn’t die.

      • Pieter says:

        Stacey,

        Yes, some people whose suicides were prevented felt very happy that they were. They felt elated to have the gift of life back. But is this a sufficient a reason to intervene?

        No.

        All of us are engaged in making irreversible decisions. For some of these decisions, we are likely to pay very dearly. Is this a reason to stop us from making them? Should the state be allowed to prevent a couple from marrying because of genetic incompatibility? Should an overpopulated country institute forced abortions? Should smoking be banned for the higher risk groups? The answers seem to be clear and negative. There is a double moral standard when it comes to suicide. People are permitted to destroy their lives only in certain prescribed ways.

        And if the very notion of suicide is immoral – why stop at individuals? Why not apply the same prohibition to political organizations (such as the Yugoslav Federation or the USSR or East Germany or Czechoslovakia, to mention four recent examples)? To groups of people? To institutions, corporations, funds, not for profit organizations, international organizations and so on?

        This fast deteriorates to the land of absurdities, long inhabited by the opponents of suicide.

    • Tom H says:

      Stacey, again, there’s no way to reply to your reply. I don’t know if that’s intentional, but I feel compelled to point out, respectfully, that your justification for preventing suicides, “Many suicidal people change their minds and later are glad they didn’t die,” is neither a statistically valid argument (there is no comparison between the community who survive and disavow their earlier suicidal ideations and the untold numbers who successfully committed suicide) nor a philosophically valid reason to proscribe free personal choice. Many people who get divorced later regret their choice–as is also true for very many significant life choices (like the choise to drop out of school or give up citizenship in a prosperous nation…). That is the very cornerstone of personal freedom–that we and we alone get to decide about our personal lives.

      Of course, when someone seeks out the help of a psychologist or therapist or priest or minister… that is her or his free choice to seek counsel. It is notable the contrasting case with other patients (the working hypothesis undergirding mental illness of which there is no rigorous cause-effect proof is that these so-called diseases are organic diseases of the brain) who are free to terminate therapy at any time despite (a) experts’ prognoses that doing so will be terminal and (b) it being just as arguably in such patients’ interests to be deprived of the freedom of choice–under similar reasoning (the documented regret of those who forego treatment and later lament their choice). In no other branch of health science, with the exception of the consideration of legal minors, can health practitioners countermand patients’ wishes wholesale, and certainly not for the justification that you offer here.

      Lastly, that the majority of a community feels a certain way, it is consistent with US legal and social policy history as well as social moral philosophy, is no justification for imposing others’ personal life decisions on an individual. Such is the sentiment of the long history of US civil rights law and I’m confident eventually this most definitively personal matter will fall under the same umbrella. We are neither willing nor able to care for very, very many who choose to die. That may be a sad affirmation, but it is true and unless we both want to and can do such things, we shouldn’t even be having this conversation as precious few (if any) of us will be there to comfort those otherwise utterly bereft of comfort.

      • Callidora says:

        I’ve attempted suicide several times since I was a teen. Never once was i happy i didnt succeed. Life just got even worse.

  57. Kelly says:

    I have wanted to die for years now. I have zero quality of life. Only family I have are 3 children who hate me. A nasty x husband who rewards them for hating me. He has money I don’t. I don’t have money for a hobby or to go out. I have 2 friends both live far away. I’m in pain everyday and I want it to stop.

    • Callidora says:

      People die every day from accidents, illness, and stupidity. Why is death so hard to achieve for those who desperately seek it? Yes, i seek an easy, peaceful death, my life is painful enough. I am more afraid of a failed attempt than anything

  58. Carol says:

    I’ve been severely depressed and anxious for over 3 years. I have tried everything, from many different meds to a number of different therapists to residential care to ECT and alternative doctors, neurofeedback. I’ve been hospitalized probably 7 or 8 times. I had a helper for awhile who dragged me around to exercise classes. I’ve tried to continue meditating. I recently had an (unintentional) overdose; I was just trying to stop the pain. Was in a coma for 3 days, hospitalized for almost 2 weeks. For a few days after the hospital things were a tiny bit better then steep downward slide. I’ve lost most of my friends, and recently it’s gotten even harder to keep up any semblance of normal life (I had slight bits and pieces before) or talk to people. Everyone is burned out and wants to live their own lives without taking on my pain. I have a husband with Parkinson’s; that probably was a contributing factor to my falling into this state. Not being alone doesn’t keep me from wanting to die. Before this, I had a history of depression but nothing like this. And for almost 14 years before this crash, I was on an antidepressant that worked like magic and I was happier than I’d ever been. And then it stopped, as often happens. I thought I was through with depression during that 14 years, thought I’d get to have a good life, despite prevoius depression be able to say I’d had a good life. But then entered this horror show. It’s been living hell and I really, really wish there was some surefire, peaceful way to die. I know there isn’t. They say suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Is 3+ years temporary? If there is a god, he is cruel.

  59. Aricia says:

    The fundamental question that one must ask:

    “Is there anything in life worth doing or experiencing that makes prolonging your existence worthwhile?”

    I think that this question can only be answered on an individual level and CANNOT really be answered in a general or holistic sense. This is because life is a subjective experience, and although one individual may have their reasoning as to why they wish to continue living, another may feel justified in blowing their brains out. Which individual is correct in their reasoning? I would say both are correct from their own perspective. Aside from the mere fact that most people are simply propelled to survive solely through the fear of death, the reasoning for survival is a very subjective matter. No philosophical reasoning can conclude that life is better than death or that death is better than life, especially since you can’t possibly know what is on the other side of death.

  60. Anonymous says:

    im afraid to type, dont ask why, i wont tell you. ok im not here to give anybody any help, ok this complex.but i wont reveal anything to you, i keep everything to myself and shut my mouth from now on due to the danger im in, to you sheeps, and i dont mean this an offending way, its just a slang word, suicide to you is different from suicide to somebody that is not a sheep. im not giving anything away here, but an example is, if you order a dell battery and it arrives, you will know that is not the original dell battery if it doesnt say dell in big logo words,you will just think is the oem original part of the dell battery, but those who dont know what a legit dell battery looks like then you are a sheep, because most batteries dont say dell and look similar, but its not exactly the same cause no dell logo, in fact what you got was a chinese battery instead which are not as good as american dell batteries,will still accept it as the original dell battery. sheeps suicide and i like sheeps dont get me wrong are diferent than somebody that is not a sheep. you all commit suicide cause of depression, cancer or any fatal disease, or loss of job, or breaking up relation with your partner.suicide is not getting you to heaven or hell,i know where it gets me, but im not telling you.so dont commit suicide, everything can always be fixed, better days will always come. me i have always been a happy person, my childhood was great, i got to admit, but since 2015, supernatural things happened to me in this tropical country, it was horrible, i say no more,then when i came back to the country i love the most,which is the USA, i had escaped those haunting months, my mom rescued me.after a while i was going thru some uncomfortable times,almost every month and when im happy everything going well, things that i cant talk about started every month after weeks of feeling like my life is going to be fun and adventurous and have girlfriend,12 months straight bad things happen to me, so now i think suicide, but for me suicide is different because im not depressed and im healthy, but lonely. all this bad things thats happening have considering suicide, by making myself so stressed out, so i will get a stroke. this is the part you wont undertand and i wont reveal much, because i have to keep everything to myself and obey at any costs,no matter what.i dont exist, im not real, im an illusion, trapped in a video game, and what comes next after you die is not that bad, but i am not going to get the normal thing that happens if i die inside the video game im in, or if i die after the video game is over, kind of like a pac man game, put coins in and when pacman is swallowed by the ghosts,game over, well i feel im going to get tortured very bad, its not hell, its different, only for watching videos on the internet, which were there to watch, it wasnt my fault i watch videos,like planets and mythology, well i was scared of what i watched and sad and i stupidly went and posted many of those videos on frou site and now, believe me, my fate is not very good,i didnt know i was doing this and then i knew i should not have posted any mystery videos.so now for that im considered a bad person, from whom, i wont tell you.but think i have to try to stay inside this video game as long as i can,because if try to live the video game, i know there is something bad to happen to me, i will be punished with much pain.last time i post here,.god aint gonna help me, jesus, i dont believe in jesus. doesnt matter, im just a hologram, leave you with a funny star wars quote, princess leia telling obi wan kanobi, youre my only hope, sadly obi wan kanobi wont be there to help me.live long and prosper beautiful humans.

  61. T says:

    I would implore everyone who’s been participating in this discussion to watch this 18-minute documentary, “Letting You Go” about a Belgian man who stood by his 27-year-old daughter in her decision to pursue physician-assisted suicide after struggling with severe mental illness for over a decade.

    https://aeon.co/videos/what-it-s-like-to-stand-by-your-daughter-in-her-choice-to-die

    • Carol says:

      She was able to get physician assisted suicide for mental illness? I thought it was only possible for terminal physical illness

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        In the U.S., physician-assisted suicide is permitted only when a person has a terminal illness and is expected to die within six months. In a few countries, such as Belgium and the Netherlands, people can receive assistance to die for other reasons, too, including mental illness.

        This state of affairs is fraught with moral questions. This article captures the questions well: Europe’s Morality Crisis: Euthanizing the Mentally Ill.

      • Tom H says:

        In order for a legitimate crisis to exist, a phenomenon has to be objectively real, I’d offer. Superman and Lois Lane can’t have a relationship crisis because the characters are fictional, despite readers’/viewers’ suspension of belief regarding the fiction. Historians might argue there were “morality crises” surrounding the emancipation of slaves or women’s suffrage… but I’d argue these controversies represent differences of opinions. And that’s what’s at the root of human euthanasia controversies–differences of opinions. The travesty is that some professional organizations, without empirical evidence to substantiate their opinions as verified biomedical facts, have duped the legal system into believing that one opinion of life value and the corresponding “therapeutic” intervention opinions are hard, objective facts. This means, of course, that differing opinions are taken not only as fallacies (the sorts of things that can be objectively “wrong”), but worse, as indications of objective biomedical illness (neuropathology). This is the cost of elevating opinions to the status of facts–that we can then pathologize those who have different opinions, silence them, and even involuntarily manipulate them–removing their freedoms and forcing what we perceive to be “treatments” on them.

        I don’t want to seem to be nit-picking, but when the stakes are as high as personal freedom then these charged expressions ought to be called out.

    • Brittany says:

      why would you share that that should not be on here :(((( no one should feel like they should kill themselves no matter what reason. We were all made for a special reason. Man this video should be banned.

  62. mic says:

    Stacey, thanks for your interesting post. But speaking as someone who has been suicidal for many years, the idea that people such as me should be forcibly kept alive (or else be left to try risky and painful methods of secretive suicide) deepens my despair. In fact, I would have to say that the current laws that are keeping suicidal people trapped in an unwanted existence is the greatest contributor to my suicidal ideation; more than the personal issues of loneliness and failure stemming from my autistic spectrum disorder. I appreciate that you mean well in wanting to prevent suicide, but denying people their bodily sovereignty and keeping them imprisoned within a life that is burdensome to them (after they never consented to being born in the first place) is akin to slavery in my view.

    I can’t really top J Connor’s excellent comment, which covers all the bases very well. But to reiterate what he/she said, non-existence cannot be harmful and suffering is always harmful. Although in many cases, suicidal people’s lives do turn around eventually; if the individual concerned can provide a reasoned and competent explanation of why they wish to end their life, then it should be their inalienable right to do so as long as nobody else is directly endangered in the process. To echo again a comment of J Connor’s, to prevent people from being able to make this determination on their own is a case of forcibly using the state apparatus to impose one’s own values and beliefs (in this case, it often stems from a religious conviction in the absolute sanctity of life). I would consider that to be a violation of the individual’s freedom of thought and is effectively a violation of freedom of/from religion.

    • Grieving Mother says:

      So, from reading many of the comments I am horrified to know that many people think that suicide is simply a person’s choice. I just lost my 17yr old daughter to suicide and you people are really disturbing in my opinion. She was a senior getting ready to graduate and start her life. But instead I buried her exactly 4 months after her 17th birthday. Her 15 yr old sister found her. Now I have to worry about losing her too. She is in counseling now and praying it works. I will do whatever it takes to save her. I already feel like I failed my oldest daughter and I refuse to fail my 15yr old. Suicide is murder so I don’t understand how anyone can think that letting someone kill themselves is OK. It is repulsive to me knowing so people think it’s OK.

      • Brandon says:

        At the risk of seeming callous, it is indeed a person’s choice. It’s fair to say that you chose the actions involved in her conception, despite not being able to get consent from her. So perhaps her suicide is simply her saying no thanks. All relationship will inevitably require choice. Otherwise it’s not really a relationship, but slavery/imprisonment.

  63. 656E64206974 says:

    “And yet, even with that intention, the moment he jumped off the bridge, he instantly regretted his decision”

    I’ve attempted twice and both times I woke up feeling even more bitter than when I did it.
    So you mileage may vary.

  64. Pechorin says:

    In my experience, there are people who truly ought to end their lives, but they are stopped by all the cowardice credited to suicides. And so they go on, becoming exponentially more miserable by the day, with their sense of valuelessness showing itself in less agreeable forms, recklessness, bad manners, and possibly even trolling. Such individuals cannot end the agony of their existence, so they seek to drag others down with them, and I am not even going to start on those who suffer in silence, only screaming their curse on the human race when and where nobody shall hear them.

    I ponder suicide often, but if I had the nerve to end this wretched life, I probably would have no desire to end it. That nerve would have enabled me to make something of it.

  65. Bill says:

    I hate life. It’s all pain and stress. Then I have assholes like trump that just start shit.. I’m depressed. I’m on meds’ I’m tired of it all. Trying to get the nerves to kill my self. I don’t want to leave my wife
    And dog alone!!! I need help

  66. James says:

    I had a spine injury from a spinal cord stimulator trial about a
    year-and-a-half ago. I lost most of the use of my left leg, bladder function
    and live a life of chronic neuropathic pain 24 hours every day. I can get
    around with a cane but the pain is so bad I find it hard to do anything or go
    places with these issues. Even sitting upright in a chair hurts. I spend most of my time
    laying on our sectional. I’m 56, have a wife and 11 year old son and I know my
    wife has totally had it with my problems. I want to end my life. But I just can’t go on like this, every day and night is such a struggle and I know it makes it
    tougher for the few people close me. You really can’t understand the life of
    chronic pain without living it. It destroys you emotionally and you just don’t
    care about things anymore, even the people you love. You live a dead life and
    can go from rage to tears so easy. I have tried everything possible to lessen
    this pain but nothing works. I keep waiting each day for it to get better but
    it never does. Pain meds help a great deal especially when I have to go
    somewhere, but with the government issues and the crackdown on opiates I had to
    cut back on them and it really hurts. Doctors don’t want to have the feds in
    their business and I can’t blame them. Just another thing to make my days much
    more difficult. I still have some hopes that this pain will ease up but I
    really doubt it will happen and I don’t take that tragic step of ending my
    life. I’m not looking for sympathy or advice, there is little I have not done for my issues. To all out there who suffer like I do I wish you the best.

    [This comment was edited to abide by the Comments Policy. – SF]

    • Puck says:

      I am sorry to hear that you had a bad surgery. The one thing that far too many just do not get and that is the opiates are far safer than most alternatives such as surgery, and over the counter medications when there is chronic pain. I also have chronic pain, and have been using opiates for about a decade now. I had my meds cut and had to find another doctor. After all what far too many just do not get is that opiates can kill, and life is terminal. What is needed is for life to be worth living for people not to kill themselves with opiates or some other method. Have you though about moving to another state, one where you can get medical pot and other herbals. The main reason that makes sense that Kratom and Pot are either illegal or facing being illegal is that there is not enough profit in them for the major drug makers in this country. Also their money is more important to those in government than our lives or the lives of our families.

  67. Terry says:

    I have read this but at no point has anything helped me I think I will always want to die. I have attempted three times . Now it’s almost like I have desensitised my self from it. I know no one will actually give a shit. Every one will move on . Have happy lives and just live normally.
    Every one I have seen that has had death in there lives have always been fine in the end and like its nothing. Except me when my mum died I couldn’t ever move on and still can’t 3-4 years on. Loosing my sister 25 years ago and still can’t move on.

    I have spoken to doctors . Mental health specialists
    Behavioural specialists
    Friend
    Family
    Everything .
    It doesn’t change anything it just makes it worse . Blissful ignorance is the only thing that even comes close to “helping” I say helping sparingly as it’s almost a placebo that I have an extremely high tolerance to. I know that literally makes no sense but that’s the way it is.
    I love people in my life so much but still it’s not enough to change. It’s almost like it amplifies it, I feel like I’m being selfish hanging around because I love them. And I know they will be perfectly fine with out me. Actually will have a better quality of life with out me.
    I don’t even know why I’m writing this

    [This comment was edited to abide by the Comments Policy. – SF]

  68. DF says:

    Yes, hope and hopelessness are equally delusional states. The question of their “truthfulness” will always be as unverifiable as the truthfulness of any other deeply held belief. The relevant question to ask of any of our beliefs is: “Does this belief contribute to me living with myself and others in a way that is helpful?”

  69. Anon says:

    Because, even if an individual has been suicidal for 20 plus years, there is and will always be hope. The worst thing I can imagine is someone not surviving long enough to find what life can be, that it will not feel like this forever, and to see the colours in the world. Speaking as someone who has attempted to suicide numerous times to the point of being resuscitated twice. There is always, always, always, always hope, even if you can’t see it or even understand the concept. I would suffer a million times over and over again to see and appreciate life as I do now.

    • Rick says:

      THANKYOU for your encouragement in the deepest, darkest “Hellhole”, soooooooo many of us are currently experiencing in this Sin filled world.. Your “failure” at suicide, just saved many,many, many more struggling soul’s. Thank you. Eternally(I PRAY) grateful.God bless you..

    • J Connor says:

      So you believe you have the right to impose your experience and beliefs onto others? Utterly baffling. I’m not suicidal. I’m a physician who believes in body autonomy which extends to the right-to-die (see Belgium and the Netherlands for case studies in action so I needn’t explain my position). What you’re suggesting is akin to a religious zealot pushing their beliefs and agenda on others. Philosophically speaking, “hope” is an illusion. Reality is what’s left when you’re not trying to escape from your discomfort with hope. As a wise teacher once said, “Hope and fear is a feeling with two sides. As long as there’s one, there’s always the other. This is the root of our pain. In the world of hope and fear, we always have to change the channel, change the temperature, change the music, because something is getting uneasy, something is getting restless, something is beginning to hurt, and we keep looking for alternatives.” So you see, your whole position is grounded in YOUR personal belief system; you could easily replace the word “HOPE” with “GOD” and it wouldn’t be any different.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        J Connor,

        Thanks for contributing to the discussion. You raise good ideas, but there is one confusing point. If hope is an illusion, wouldn’t hopelessness be the same? And if people then kill themselves based on an illusion (per your philosophy), then wouldn’t we have an ethical obligation to intervene, in the same manner that someone who’s delirious with a fever of 106 is protected from himself or herself? I use that extreme example solely for the purpose of an illustrative analogy, based on the logic you use above; in reality, I realize that the situations that suicidal people face are seldom, if ever, so simplistic.

        I appreciate your engagement in the discussion, and it leads me to a greater question that others’ comments have led me to, as well: Why are you against others having or expressing hope?

        In this case, Anon didn’t say we should use force against the suicidal. They simply expressed a belief, in the same way that you did. So, by extension, are you imposing your belief on others merely by expressing it?

        These aren’t intended to be rhetorical questions. I’d like to keep the conversation going. Thank you.

    • J Connor says:

      Stacey, unfortunately, you don’t have a “Reply” link under your comment, so I’m replying again to Anon. To answer your questions:

      You said: “If hope is an illusion, wouldn’t hopelessness be the same? And if people then kill themselves based on an illusion (per your philosophy), then wouldn’t we have an ethical obligation to intervene, in the same manner that someone who’s delirious with a fever of 106 is protected from himself or herself?”

      I’m not sure this analogy works. People don’t kill themselves *because* of hopelessness – hope/hopelessness are merely words we use to describe probabilistic states which exist only in our minds. People hope for all kinds of things. They hope to win the lottery. They hope to meet Prince Charming and live happily ever after. They hope to be rich and famous. More often than not, hope is not grounded in reality – it’s used as a diversion FROM reality. If hope is grounded in reality, it can be a useful cognitive tool. But I rarely see hope applied that way, so I’m talking about the former.

      People kill themselves for a variety of reasons, but I’d like to focus this example on those who are suffering from severe, lifelong mental illness that has not responded to treatment. Those people often kill themselves due to an unbearable pain that they’ve been carrying for years and years (with treatment). Eventually, some of these folks will make a very reasonable and logical assessment that they are likely going to be struggling uphill like that for the rest of their lives. They may decide that they are willing to foreclose on any future good times because an absence of good times isn’t harmful, whereas suffering is always harmful. Some may call this “hopelessness;” the truth is, in some cases, it’s a realistic, pragmatic assessment of a suicidal person’s reality. It doesn’t matter what labels we apply because we’re not the one living that person’s life. Some may believe that under all circumstances, people should have hope (like Anon), even after say, 40 years of battling illness and suffering intensely; never mind their own experience and judgment and choices about how they’d like their life to go, they should just “keep hope alive.” All too often, I see people using other people’s suffering in this way to give meaning and value to their own interpretations of life. That’s simply not appropriate.

      You said: “In this case, Anon didn’t say we should use force against the suicidal. They simply expressed a belief, in the same way that you did. So, by extension, are you imposing your belief on others merely by expressing it?”

      Anon responded to your question, “If Someone’s Life is So Awful that They Want to Die, Why Stop Them?” with, “Because, even if an individual has been suicidal for 20 plus years, there is and will always be hope.”

      I realize you have changed the title of the post after the fact to a softer word, “prevent,” but I’m going with the word “stop,” because that’s what we often do. To “stop” someone is often to use force. And the reason Anon suggested we “stop” someone whose life is so miserable that they wish to die is because….hope. Furthermore, he/she said, “There is always, always, always, always hope, even if you can’t see it or even understand the concept.” You can hope all you want for something which has no probability of happening, but that doesn’t change reality. I could give more clinical and real-life examples than you’d care to read where there IS no hope, there’s just plain’ ol’ reality. Anon’s response suggests to me, that under any and all circumstances one should cling to hope and ignore reality and keep on suffering because “I believe this about life and the world, and you should too, even if you don’t understand it.” It’s laced with dogma. To be clear, I don’t have any issues with Anon’s hopefulness as it’s applied to **their own life.**

      To reiterate – I’m about personal autonomy. If hope works for you, great! I certainly encourage my patients to remain hopeful when, clinically speaking, there is a reasonable justification for it. I have seen many cases where false hope was more than counterproductive for patients facing very real end-of-life situations. Conversely, I had a Buddhist cancer patient last year who rejected the notion of hope and stated she’d prefer to “be with what is.” She was one of the best patients I’ve ever had. No doubt, her meditation practice helped her healing process along. But she never clung to hope as a distraction from what she was experiencing – she never once turned away from it – she went through it fully, bravely, and presently. She prompted me to read up on the Buddhist view on hope (Pema Chodron is the “wise teacher” I quoted in the aforementioned comment).

      My point all along was this: We should be very clear that hope is an aspect of personal belief, and personal beliefs should not be used to impose upon the liberty of others.

      As a caveat, I do believe suicide prevention is necessary under most circumstances, as many people who attempt are in crisis. I also believe there’s a subset of the suicidal population who are left to suffer relentlessly from untreatable illnesses because they’re not “terminal,” and I do not doubt that one day in the future, we’ll look back at ourselves and see our current policies as inhumane.

      Stacey, if you’re interested, I would suggest watching this Yale Philosophy course on the rationality of suicide. It’s only a few parts long, and it’s an undergrad course, but I have yet to find any material which better illustrates my line of thinking on this topic. Thank you for keeping this conversation going! It’s obviously an important one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MajfZIyHP8U

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        J Connor,

        Thanks for your thoughtful and well-reasoned reply to my comment. (And yes, it’s unfortunate that these are all nested under Anon’s comment, since you and I have moved into a different conversation between ourselves.)

        I appreciate the points you raise. I think for me, as someone involved in suicide prevention, the terrible challenge I face is not knowing who is on the other end of the screen. By that I mean, when someone leaves a comment disparaging hope, the words can be validating in a soothing way to someone whose situation has not improved after many years of fruitless efforts to get better. On the other hand, the words might be validating to someone for whom validation is damaging – the person whose hopelessness arises from cognitive distortions, for example, and for whom some hope is not only warranted but potentially healing. Yet many people in the second camp think they belong in the first (and many in the first wish they belonged in the second). And, in keeping with a fundamental disagreement that you and I appear to have, I think it’s rarely possible to know that there is no hope. Life surprises us all. Is that reason enough to stay alive? That might be a more apt question than whether hope does or does not exist in a particular situation.

        I will try to watch the Yale course you referenced. As I wrote in another comment today, I do see the merit of some arguments for not intervening when someone is suicidal. In particular, I believe that more people would get help – and be more honest when they do – if they didn’t have to worry about being committed to a hospital against their will. Susan Stefan writes meaningfully about these issues in her book Rational Suicide, Irrational Laws: Examining Current Approaches to Suicide in Policy and Law, which is a book that might interest you if you haven’t read it already.

        And yes, I agree, this is an important conversation, and one we will see more and more in the years to come, I suspect.

  70. Myrna says:

    I have major depressive disorder and PTSD. I have a very loving husband of 51 years. I have a child who lives with us who also has PTSD & MDD. I see no reason to live any longer when my husband passes; he is terminal. My husband saved me from an abusive situation when I was a teenager, & had tried suicide at ages 14 & 16. My son’s problems are personal & tragic. I see no reason to go on living with my husband gone. He is the ONLY PERSON WHO HAS EVER LOVED ME UNCONDITIONALLY. So I ask you, what is the point??? I am on meds, plus I’ve had 5 years of therapy. I don’t think my wonderful daughter, & 5 mostly grown grandchildren are enough to keep me going.

    • Constantine says:

      To Aiah Zohar: I want to thank you for your grounded perspective, your rationality, and your intelligence – you have made some incredible contributions to this discussion (I’ve been following for months). It’s a shame that mental health professionals like Stacey can’t lead a rational debate on this topic. Instead, they’re stuck in an immature way of looking at suicide through a purely emotional lens and they only know how to project their personal beliefs and perspectives about life and the world onto others. “Just have some hope and check the resources page!”

      I understand that you’re a physician – I wish that at some point when the debate does eventually make its way into the public forum, people like you — and many others in the medical and philosophical fields — will come forward and enter the debate. My father is a surgeon and he shares your viewpoints, as do many of his colleagues. We need people who are able to discern the difference between reason and emotions to drive this conversation and really dissect the issue. I am not depressed, but I have a chronic, degenerative disease for which I would not qualify for assisted euthanasia in the US and I will, therefore, have to take my own life with potentially unreliable means when it progresses to the point of no return. Or I’ll have to go to Switzerland for assistance, which is expensive. It’s ABSOLUTELY hideous that people like me are expected to suffer in order to keep the false cocoon of “hope” and comfort in tact for everyone else. The same is true of those suffering from lifelong, treatment-resistant, intractable mental illness for which “hope” and “Resource Pages” are utterly useless and insulting. I believe one day in the future, we’ll look back on ourselves at this period of time and see ourselves as barbaric for allowing this level of human suffering to go on for selfish reasons.

    • Anonymous says:

      You passed on your mental health issues to your children- I think you owe it to them to stick around, and I hope you do.

  71. YeahRight says:

    As long as a person is alive, things can change for the better. Situations change. Even if their external situation is unchangeable, they may discover things that make their life worth living. There is always the possibility that they may find ways to cope. Or they may come to appreciate different things in life.

    I’m sorry. But I have been feeling like shit for over 10 years now. I have been waiting for things to get better. I have actively fought for things to get better. You’re telling me to live in misery for another 10 years so things maybe will get better? No. For some people they won’t and you can’t expect people to feel like shit for 80 years so maybe they have two more okay years. People didn’t ask to be born and they should have every right to die.

  72. Jd says:

    Im ugly been alone almost 26 years. Im in pain and i will never be happy so why go on living. Im tired of being alone and want to die.

  73. Ebony says:

    I’m suicidally depressed and have been for the past ten years but I refuse to give up hope. Even though life is difficult and things dont always go the way id like them to I will continue fighting. I mean we all die in the end anyway so why bother rushing things? May as well enjoy life to the best of my abilities. I refuse to end my life because I know that even though things seem hopeless theres always hope and that I will overcome. And I hope that all of you do too.

    • Aiah Zohar says:

      It’s absolutely terrific that you are hopeful. Life without hope can be bleak. I hope you won’t take my observation as an affront, but it’s quite demonstrable that there are many, many circumstances without hope. While it is theoretically true that “anything” is possible, and therefore one could argue there is always hope, given the span of human life, some events’ low probability of occurrence practically dismisses “hope.” Early in the treatment of some diseases, for instance, hope can be helpful in motivating patients to persevere through difficult interventions that significantly improve survival rates. However, other disease states have low survival rates, and research shows that faith or hope do not statistically alter patients’ survival rates for such diseases. In fact, at some point in the trajectory of disease, “hope” can be counterproductive, disincentivizing families and patients from making hard but necessary decisions. So not only are there legitimately hopeless situations, and not only can it be objectively demonstrated that hope does not alter outcomes, but hope itself seems to be a proxy for situations with sufficiently high chance of a favorable outcome.

      I’m not trying to be argumentative or a downer. But in a discussion about legal rights and personal freedoms concerning already culturally biased phenomena (like gender identity or marriage rights…), I think it’s extremely important to be as precise as possible about the mechanics of the phenomenon under consideration. While some people for a host of reasons have hope where their currently unsatisfactory lives are concerned (that is, there is a reasonable probability of their attaining satisfaction), that is mathematically not the case for others. The fallacy of the psychological model is its assumption that the ignorance of those in the present about the future necessarily means that future events are “open.” For many reasons, this assumption is false but persists simply because we don’t yet understand enough the core causes and effects.

      Bottom line: it’s terrific that someone is hopeful, so long as that emotional state is not then used as an expectation of the way others must feel about their own lives, or as a presumed model of the way the world actually works.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Aiah,

        I considered not publishing your comment, because it doesn’t seem to actually relate to Ebony’s comment. Ebony said that she experiences depression and suicidal thoughts, but that hope keeps her alive. And as you yourself note, it’s “absolutely terrific” that she feels hopeful. I agree with her reasoning, and I’m grateful that she and many others like her do feel hope. Hope is an antidote to suicidality.

        I also think you misunderstood Aiah’s comment. She’s not making a statement about “legal rights and personal freedoms concerning already culturally biased phenomena (like gender identity or marriage rights…),” as you imply in your comment. She’s making a statement about her own personal experience, and she’s saying that she hopes that others experience similar hope. I don’t know Ebony beyond the words she posted here, but her comment suggests she has a generous and compassionate spirit.

        It seems to me that your comment about hopelessness pertains more to situations of people with terminal illness, for whom there is no recognizable hope for recovery. I’d like to point out that research shows that most people with incurable terminal illness do not want to end their lives prematurely via suicide or other forms of hastened death. Isn’t that interesting?

        Ultimately, I decided to publish your comment, because I think it can stimulate important discussion and thought. I’m particularly interested in this statement by you: “The fallacy of the psychological model is its assumption that the ignorance of those in the present about the future necessarily means that future events are ‘open.'” Is there a reason why you would assume that ignorance of those in the present about the future necessarily means that future events are *not* open?

        I ask genuinely out of curiosity, not to be argumentative. I appreciate your contributing to the discussion, and I’d like to be sure I understand. Thank you.

    • Aiah Zohar says:

      Stacey, first, pardon me for replying to Ebony’s comment, but I saw no “reply” field under your comment to reply to it. I appreciate that it is not your intent to be argumentative; nor is it mine. First, I do not believe I took exception with the way Ebony herself feels about her own life experiences. And I sincerely congratulated her for feeling good about her circumstances.

      However, I did take exception to the assertion, “there’s always hope.” That is patently false. What humans call “hope” is our desire for events to transpire a certain way. There is no rigorously demonstrable reason that what we hope must come to pass, and considerable evidence that hope does not alter outcomes. Very many hopes do not come to fruition. But statistically, even if the probabilities of hope-odds were closely matched, this would be what a researcher would call poor predictive power. There would be little justification in believing “I hope X” presages the eventual passage of event-X. You can argue that hoping for something motivates behavior that may alter the odds of realizing what’s hoped for, but then hope is arguably not the causal factor, but a confounding factor for intent. And even then, what is intended–motivating someone to act–must be possible and doesn’t guarantee success. Curiously, intent and hope can be disjoint and yet lead to unhoped for outcomes in the favor of intent (what is intended predicts what happens rather than what is hoped for, assuming the event is actually possible).

      I do not agree that my argument is limited to patients with terminal cases. This is merely a natural consequence of probability. Obviously, if medicine predicts a certain physiological state is terminal, hoping otherwise is eventually recognizable as unreasonable. But the assumption that what is hoped for is reasonable when the means available to us to assess probable outcomes are crude is an argument of present ignorance, not cause-effect. The same patient who was counseled to be hopeful earlier, and was, is the same patient who today is labeled “terminal.” All that has changed is our ability to “see” the disease trajectory better, not the effect of hope on the disease process.

      I did not misunderstand Ebony’s comment. You are right that she is not addressing legal rights at all, but because her feelings and perspectives enjoy, as you have yourself here demonstrated, professional approval as “appropriate,” despite the lack of rigorous empirical substantiation (not of simple associations), they have come to occupy the legal and medical position of “correct,” and therefore alternative views and perspectives are not merely discouraged (which runs counter to the democratic process which relies on open information and discussion), but also carry punitive costs. So, yes, this kind of discussion that impinges on all citizens’ legal rights is critical, especially in the context that your own reply imposes. While it’s terrific that some people are hopeful, and while I agree with you that hope predicts the desire to continue living, it’s an affront to liberty that these perspectives should become national policy circumscribing others’ personal freedoms.

      You asked why I would “assume that ignorance of those in the present about the future necessarily means that future events are not open.” First, I only claimed that not knowing the future does not mean that all possibilities in the future are practically possible. That is a demonstrable fact, and it is also an assertion that ought to be addressed on its own merits without the distraction of another question. The assertion is also a natural limit on the rationality of hope. Unless my claim is proven false, “there’s always hope” is simply false.

      The question you ask, however, assuming the additional qualifier “some” (future events), is a logical complement to the claim I made. If multiple events are mutually exclusive, eventually some events become improbable (“opportunity cost”). Further, natural probability distributions are rarely equal. Someone may argue that one may be content with many of the possible outcomes such that it is not a problem that some are no longer possible, but there’s no natural reason that must be true for everyone. Moreover, it will still be false that hoping for something must make it come true.

      That I’m aware of, the encouragment of hope is not rigorously empirically evidenced as therapeutically effective. I’ve spent many years searching for the quantitative and physical evidence but haven’t come upon it. I’m open to reading research publications our team may have missed. As I see it, hope is not an intervention, but instead, a response to circumstances.

      Stacey, you point out that most terminal patients want to continue living. My clinical and research experiences corroborate that claim. Pardon me, but I don’t see how that alters the argument. I have never argued that anyone ought to be forced to accept a particular perspective, but rather that patients should enjoy autonomy to consider the myriad aspects of their lives external professionals simply never can and to make personal decisions that may differ greatly from the decisions their support professionals might make for themselves. This discussion now transpiring globally is critical because it concerns one of the most crucial personal liberties. And more and more nations around the world, and more and more US citizens are deciding in favor of personal liberty.

      Lastly, thank you for deciding to publish my earlier comment to Ebony. Again, it wasn’t meant to be mean-spirited, but rather generative. That said, it frankly frightens me, as a free citizen and a medical scientist and a physician, that some ideas that concern policy that purports to be based in science and to which all citizens are subject should be publically censorable simply because others find the ideas themselves offensive or disagree with the perspectives entailed. Sorry for the long reply.

    • Diego says:

      to Aiah Zohar,

      I want just to say that with your last comment (very, very well articulated) you really hit the mark from a rational, realistic, empirical, scientific point of view. To me (and maybe to other rationally oriented people) reality, even if sad, is always better than delusional wishful thinking, because in the end reality always wins.

      I didn’t like Stacey article but after reading her responses to some of the most deep and articulated comments and after reading, in “Why I Came Out of the (Suicide) Closet”, the fear of stigma from opinionated colleagues that she faced, I have much more respect of her opinions.
      I understand the difficult situation she faces as a therapist counseling suicidal people.

      In one of the comments I was referring to she writes “Many of the comments on this site have challenged my ideas and caused me to stretch my thinking.”; I want to be provocative and suggest that your comment should be one of them, maybe the best one, in my humble opinion.
      I’m disappointed she didn’t respond with a rational, realistic, empirical and scientific observation on par with yours… but maybe she can’t because the phrase “there is always hope” is theoretically and empirically false and “it will still be false that hoping for something must make it come true”. Sadly, she can’t change it…

  74. Lost Man says:

    I think it is high-minded crap to be interfering with the choices of others. This argument that the crisis is often or usually temporary smacks of arrogance. No one else knows what a person is actually going through. You may be able to relate, but you do not KNOW what is going on. For those with lifetime diseases, the continued torture of living with that disease can be just that, TORTURE! Sure, there MAY be treatments to help manage the disease, but all to often there is no CURE! As a man with bipolar disorder, I know this will haunt me for the rest of my life. I also know that I am running out of treatment options, so why shouldn’t I be able to make a choice if I want to live this way or not!

    • Beth says:

      I do absolutely agree in everything u wrote

    • David says:

      I have CP and have been in horrific pain my entire life.
      I am 60 and a divorce has lost everything; spouse, lover, job, estranged my older daughter, credit, mansion and happiness. The only family i have is
      a 19 yr old daughter that has only seen me once in
      4 months. I live in a tiny motel room it is all i can afford. I am on SSD. I have many terminal probs and do not want to suffer anymore. I am ready for this crapfest to end. There is no way to fix it. Pills do work. They do not improve reality. Grief has no cure. Sooner the better.

  75. m.m.mokhtar says:

    in my opinion by now there is no right to prevent sucide , let any person decide for his self every body knows about himself better then any body else , no body is kind to himself more than one self

  76. Lily says:

    And what if I am such a fuck-up who did poorly in school, has no realistic nor affordable access to quality college, strongly resents employer demand for degrees that are expensive and unnessesary, fucks up on what few jobs are available to me and thus burns bridges and gets bad references that affect future employment, can’t keep/get anything gainful, is transgender and desperately wants gender reassignment but cant seem to access doctors for it, is looking at losing any real healthcare access due the clowns in Government, is still stuck living at home with limited time before being cast to the street, all the while being months away from age 30… An age I had expected to be independant. I don’t have time in terms of support to fix anything, late blooming to this degree looks awful on a resume, my references suck (and that’s irreversable), and I literally cannot realistically foresee any betterment in my near future. I can fantasize about it, but it would seem I simply wasn’t born to move the world. I am naturally a rude diva-type bitch without meaning to be and Im usually oblivious to the fact until it becomes a professional faux pas that gets me fired. I will end up a leech on society with no means to climb out. I will not have a beautiful lube of the story i crave and dream about… No ultra-modern luxe place, no total overhaul off my car, no glamourous and gainful job with plenty of work/life balance while young enough to really enjoy it. I had potential once and it was squandered. I have no good future, just a shityy, tumultuous one that will never give me joy. Tell me why i should keep going on. Why would you dare think this is temporary and resolvable? It will take more work and time than I can give and cost money I can never have without massive, crippling debt. Imagine yourself in my shoes. Will you not want to end the suffering, too?

    • Anonymous says:

      Sounds to me like you need a mentor more than anything else. Help you get your priorities straight. Having conflicting values can screw your life up royally but can also be corrected in a short time. And the evidence of it working can come almost immediately. Improving one self can be a goal to enjoy working on for a lifetime.

    • Liz says:

      I’m the same as you. I’m 34 and have screwed up my past so royally that I don’t even know what to do about it. Some of it wasn’t even my fault–years of illness, being robbed, depression, lawsuits against me. My family abandoned me during this hard time, and my father died. But a lot of it was simply me mismanaging my life, moving to other countries, and otherwise being a dumb fuck.

      The future leaves me no hope–I won’t go into the details, but there is no biological basis to assume anything will ever improve at this point. I have a shitty personality, like you said, “rude diva-type bitch”. I can’t make friends, I can’t make romantic partnerships, I can’t even get anyone to have sex with me. I’ll never get what I really wanted in life either. No chance. Add to that the overall decline of my country…sigh.

      What pisses me off about this suicide prevention stuff. is that it’s all geared toward teenagers. What about middle-aged folks who have had nothing but a string of bad luck and agony and who have limited chance of ever recouping these losses? Am I seriously supposed to look at my life and somehow be grateful for it? It seems like such a load of crock to me! Maybe OTHER people get happiness, but I’m clearly not one of them. I’ve no desire to continue here. THIS IS BULLSHIT.

      Well, idk if that’s relateable to you, but that’s how I feel anyway. I thought I could recognize the thought processes you’re undergoing…I go through them every single day anymore.

    • John says:

      @Liz @Lily
      I am in a similar situation as the two of you, a 28 year old man who never quite fit into what the “norm” is perceived to be and has run into terrible circumstances too. From the death of my loving mother when 17 to never forming a true loving relationship with a woman who cares about me. Life is anything but enjoyable or easy.

      Yes, each day is incredibly hard to to persevere through, knowing that a lot of what I do is seemingly in vain despite the best efforts I take to better myself; I have studied for nearly 6.5 years through graduate school from engineering to education, to have a career where I could make a difference in peoples’ lives, I was never given the opportunity to teach… Now, I am unemployed, spending a lot of time contemplating life, observing others pass me by and spending as little as possible while taking many hikes in nature.

      Like the Anonymous poster said, a mentor is the best answer to your dire struggle. This mentor, if you don’t have family or friends, could be a counselor; there are wonderful people who will help you, many counselors would be willing to waive fees at times and point you to places that are free to live/get help if you are in dire need; there are more good people out there than it may seem, it’s just the monsters are the most vocal.

      Your lives do matter, even if you have walked directly through Hell throughout your lives; even though I don’t know you, I can feel your pain when reading your words, I care about your well being, even if I am a stranger posting on this forum.

      Please carry on, meet a compassionate mentor and find peace; I fight my demons each day, struggling, but I think I’ll win, somehow.

  77. muzodor says:

    How do you find hope ?
    I am a mother of 7 and grandma to 20 . I was raised by a sexual abuser who beat us and our mom .we would run away from him in the woods because he would be chasing us with his 308 riffle .
    He would face a freight truck they would be pulling on there horn and tell us tonight you are all gone die .dad would go back to his side of the road just in the nick of time .
    I was sexualy assaulted by other men …friends of the family news paper boy ect ..I was kicked out of the house because the dog shit in his room I didn’t even know . I went to live with my boyfriend now husband and raised my own family with no drugs alcohol or violence aloud in our house . Then 13 years latter my dad sexualy assaulted my 11 year old daughter ..THAT KILLED ME INSIDE. Life would never be the same . While I was I’ll with severe depression and ptsd after bringing dad to court he got only 3 months did only 1 1/2 I went to a woman’s shelter because my husband was sexualy abusing me at that time .after 35 years we are still together .while another of my girls was assaulted by a neighbor within the next 2 years another girl by a coworker and my eldest daughter found her boyfriend dead in her car from suicide . I was hospitalized over and over again with attempted suicide and self mutilation .finally I tried to get out of this depression wich took me 7 years I became a work ahoolic built up my own buisness with my passion that is poodles .had a gromming salon boarding facility and breeding ..have donated many dogs to service .guide dogs.therapie dogs and autistic children’s . For all those years of fighting to make something of my life I ended up in a wheelchair with a broken vertabrea chronic pain
    Chronic depression and ptsd also many suicide attemps ..I am now 52 have had years of therapie . I still can answer the door or the phone am afraid of anything and everything
    My evaluation is it is not worth living .. Life is to hard . That was just a glimpse of what life was for me . Suicidal thoughts a daily thing for me .. it’s hurting the ones I love that is the hard part ..

  78. She's alive says:

    I love life and have a lot to live for. I have been through a lot, including a long-term stay in a psychiatric intensive care unit.
    I have been suicidal many times and have attempted suicide before. Every time, after, I am ashamed and bewildered.
    See, my mental health is what causes it. Issues with medication causes it but I Don’ Want To Die.
    I don’t speak for everyone but, these are the reasons I am grateful for suicide prevention. And for everyone commenting that you should have a right to it, if someone really wants to, there is no stopping it.

    • Jo says:

      I’ve been suffering from depression and C-PTSD since I was a child, for over 30 years (along with a host of co-morbid disorders like anxiety and body dysmorphia). I also have fibromyalgia. I’ve been fighting my illnesses full-on, with everything I’ve got for over 16 years. I’ve spent tens of thousands of dollars on just trying to feel *okay.* I’ve tried every relevant therapeutic approach – CBT, DBT, talk therapy, Jungian analysis, somatic therapy, trauma therapy, you name it. I’ve been to clinical psychologists, social workers, counselors, psychiatrists, shaman, ayurvedic doctors, doctors of Chinese Medicine, family physicians, “energy healers” and even psychics (hey, we get desperate) – I’ve been to every type of mental health/helping professional there is. I’ve tried 12 different medications, all of them made me worse off. I’ve done EMDR, TMS, and ketamine infusions (decided against ECT). I’ve done too many alternative/complementary therapies to count. I live a clean, healthy lifestyle. I exercise. I have practiced yoga and meditation for 15 years. I’ve done voluntary inpatient treatment. Intensive outpatient treatment. I’ve traveled. I volunteer. I’ve had good jobs. I have supportive friends. I’ve gone through all of the “resources” medicine and society have to offer. Many of them have provided temporary relief. I’ve had brief periods of remission, but still, I’m plagued by a gnawing, burning agony that has been eating at my being for my whole life, in addition to severe chronic physical pain. My personality has been slowly eroded by mental illness. I’ve lost my life to an endless cycle of desperately trying to get better – my entire life has been focused on that one goal. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. The brief periods of relative remission HAVE NOT in any way compensated for the 35 years of overall suffering. I will not live another 40+ years just for the possibility of a few months here and there where I’m not miserable. I’ve been seriously suicidal multiple times over the course of my life, but I’ve had the fortitude to deal with the impulses — not because any external “resources” were effective in helping me — but because I’m RATIONAL and I knew I hadn’t yet exhausted my options. I know the mental health profession likes to perpetuate the myth that mentally ill people are irrational.

      At this point, I’ve not only exhausted my options, but I AM exhausted. On every level, to my core. Do you have any idea how insanely tiring it is to have to spin plates all the time just to be barely functional? If I stop doing even one of the several things I have to do just to keep myself “functional,” I’ll quickly spiral down to the point I cannot get out of bed. It’s a full-time job that pays nothing – I’m not living, I’m existing. If you cannot speak from personal experience about what that feels like, you have no business spewing platitudes.

      Aside from the exhaustion, I have no money left. Let’s be real clear here: the “resources” available to those without money are a joke, and I can say that because I’ve seen it from both sides. You should be aware of this problem Stacey since your services are for upper middle-class folks. I’m not calling you out – you charge the market rate, and you’ve worked hard to get where you are. But let’s not be disingenuous about what’s available to those who can’t afford $150/hour 2-4 times per month. Community mental health clinics try to fill in the gap, but they are overburdened, and their services are “one-size-fits-all.” It often takes a couple months to get any kind of treatment. Crisis services may be helpful for people in crisis, but what about the people just trying to survive day-to-day? Well, for those people, if they have money, they have a lot of options. If not, they’re relegated to cookie cutter group therapy, or to students of counseling programs who work for discounted rates, both of which are insulting and demoralizing to anyone who has been dealing with mental illness for a long period of time, and even more so for those who are educated about mental illness and psychology in general.

      The bottom line is this: no one deserves a life of interminable suffering just so others can keep living in a cocoon of hope, where they don’t have to admit to themselves that sometimes, things DON’T get better, in spite of long-term dedicated effort and expert treatment. A lot of this comes down to people’s discomfort with their own mortality and questions about the meaning, purpose, and value of life. I don’t deserve to suffer for 40+ more years so others don’t have to contend with existential questions they’d prefer to avoid. I’ve done my part. I’ve tried everything, in EARNEST. And I will end my life on my terms. I have what I need to ensure a swift and peaceful end, and I’ve had it for over six months. I have no immediate intentions of using it, but when I am ready, I’ll go to sleep and never wake up. Sadly, most people in my shoes have to resort to gruesome, potentially painful methods that may not work and may leave them in a worse position. That’s society’s fault. I’m not in any way saying that people in crisis shouldn’t be helped. I’m not saying that treatment is useless. It’s not, and I encourage everyone to pursue it long-term and try different modalities. But there are plenty of people out there who have tried everything and still suffer from poor quality of life. People who suffer silently day in and day out from an extraordinary invisible pain. For those people, once they’ve given heavy and careful consideration to the decision to end their life, they shouldn’t be forced to do it in alone and in secret, in gruesome and painful ways. Their families don’t deserve the extra trauma of their loved one suffering a violent and painful death. They don’t deserve the shock of it coming out of left field. In a compassionate, humane society (see: Belgium, the Netherlands, and Switzerland), their families would have the time to mentally prepare, and be with them as they pass peacefully and swiftly.

      Until I’m 100% ready, I’ll keep going to therapy, and I’ll keep doing all of the “right things” I’ve been doing for the past 16 years of my life. But now, I have the comfort of knowing I have a way out. This brings me more peace than any treatment or therapy ever has. Do I like that things have come to this? No. But, I have reached a place of acceptance. I’ve had open and frank discussions with my family and friends about my decision. It hasn’t been easy for them to come to terms with, but they know first hand how much I’ve suffered and how hard I’ve tried. Most (not all) of them support me in my decision because they know it’s a rational one, and most of all, because they LOVE me and don’t want me to suffer endlessly just to forestall their inevitable experience of death. Even though I will still have to do it alone and in secret, at least this way, they will have the comfort of knowing I’ve passed peacefully and swiftly, that I’m no longer suffering, and it won’t be a complete shock. They won’t have to deal with anything afterward, as I’ll have taken care of everything in advance.

      The conversation about rational suicide and body autonomy is gaining momentum as more and more people start to approach it with compassion, reason, and logic rather than fear, knee-jerk emotions, and personal ideologies. At the end of the day, the only person who can determine the value of life is the person living that life. No one else has that right.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Jo,

        It’s awful that you’ve suffered so much, and I can understand your exhaustion. I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through so much pain and illness, and that treatments have not helped.

        You capture very eloquently the core arguments about why suicide should be permitted without intervention from others. I find merit in many of these arguments. What I struggle most with is where to draw the line.

        I don’t think people who work in suicide prevention does so to avoid existential issues, as you state above. I think for many people, myself included, the motivation is helping a person through a feeling or crisis that almost always (though not always, I realize) ends up being temporary. We have witnessed people who were resolved to die and then later, with help or the passage of time, grateful to be alive still.

        I hope that you are able to get to a better place without dying. But I also recognize that it is your right to make the choice to die, and to do it. Suicide is legal. Professionals intervene only when professionals know a person is in imminent danger of suicide.

        You stated, “I’m not living, I’m existing. If you cannot speak from personal experience about what that feels like, you have no business spewing platitudes.” I question whether my having been there confers credibility, but in case it does, I hope you will read about a piece of my experience here: A Suicide Therapist’s Secret Past.

        Again, I’m hoping that you find some measure of hope and healing, even if such hope seems unwarranted to you. Thank you for sharing your story here. I think it will help others to read it.

  79. Brittany Odle says:

    I am here for you <333 you can email jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com nothings worth killing yourself you matter <3333333 I care for you.

  80. Brittany Odle says:

    Remember you matter. There is Nothing in this world that is worth taking your precious life: death, being in debt, getting hurt, losing someone, its not worth it, its all temporary amd you will get through it. Its a phase. I will care if you die :(((((( please Just loveeee yourself and love others. ♡♡♡ forgive yourself and do something for someone. Email me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com because you matter and I care for you. I am here to listen to you, i am here to cry with you. I have empathy for you i tried to kill myself many times but praying helped me. I am here to pray for you. YOU MATTER!!!! ♡♡♡♡♡♡

  81. Jude says:

    Linda I feel the same. Always here to talk

  82. Cole says:

    Put it this way– People who believe in abortion say a woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body..

    I say– DON’T WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT WE WANT WITH OUR OWN BODY?

    If I want to end my life, that’s MY CHOICE & my own body.

    • Stephen says:

      I think suicide is terribly misunderstood. If I could simply fall asleep and never wake up again, I’d choose that in a heart beat.

      My life isn’t bad. I have problems but they’re not all that terrible. I simply don’t enjoy living and I don’t think that that’s crazy or even mildly out of whack.

      I don’t like life. There I said it. When I look back, even to my early childhood, I can never remember looking forward…to anything. Nothing interests me on any kind of profound level. I find life to be boring and bland at best, extremely tedious and painful at worst.

      That said, why should I be forced to participate in something that I don’t enjoy or desire? All of life’s pleasures disgust me. I hate the sound of people eating, it makes me sick. I hate the notion of sex, let alone the act. It’s …disgusting. I frequently feel that I simply can’t be the only person who feels this way.

      I’m not depressed. Depression takes a degree of passion. Depression speaks of some level of disappointment. I don’t feel that way. I have in the past, but that’s not what this is. What I feel now is a complete inability to muster up the energy to care to relate. Books put me to sleep, quickly. Movies, especially modern ones, are unwatchable and stupid. Music has become a chore to listen to. I’ve just outgrown it. Food is annoying. I eat very well, but the act of getting food and then having to eat it is just a chore. I don’t wish to die because of any intense self loathing, or hatred of mankind or anything like that.

      I simply wish that either the death that awaits me would show up very quickly, or that I be afforded to walk out on this boring movie of a life that nobody would ever…EVER watch.

      And I’m fine with that. Since I was very young I can remember, clearly, wishing that I could just fall asleep and not have to be bothered to awaken.

      Is that really so much to ask?

    • Anonymous says:

      Stephen! Exactly my thoughts. I haven’t seen anyone think like this except me and now you. I also wish I could sleep and just not wake up. I had some problems but that’s not the cause for this thinking.

    • Anonymous says:

      stephan is right , he says it all, stop the world and let who wants to get off get off.

      • Tom H says:

        I love the posts that argue that suicidal adults should, like women who decide to abort the child they’re carrying under the understanding that the women are in control of their own bodies, be free to get off the ride of life whenever they choose (to borrow another commenter’s expression). It is the absolute height of arrogance and absurdity that anyone–professional psychologists above them all–should presume to decide that people aren’t fit to make this particular decision, and worse, to manipulate the law to imprison people in mental “institutions” where our rights are removed, we can be restrained against our will, and have drugs and other “treatments” forced on us. It is an absolute horror that this is even still possible.

        I read recently about ill veterans and terminal elders whose homes the government snatched for the crime of tardy property taxes of less than $100 on homes these individuals had paid off decades ago. While the veterans and elders were languishing in hospitals, many dying, the titles had been sold to private companies that then, with state blessings, took the property and kicked the ex-owners out. Who’ll take care of those people? I use that as one out of a million examples of the actual hell life can be. But psychologists would have us believe every problem is surmountable and that there is a “right” way to respond–to homelessness, to utter abandonment, to chronic debilitating pain, to incessant bullying, to police and state power corruption and brutality, to unfeeling and unjust legal and court systems, to the depredations of neighbors and friends and family, to mushrooming competition for housing and jobs and schooling and even the social companionship we all need, to corporations’ destruction of the ecosystem we all have to rely on for survival simply because those corporations are rich and control governments, to the unaffordability of access to the legal system to protect our rights in a country (USA) that touts empty claims of guaranteed constitutional rights, to rape and murder and a myriad other crimes no psychologist can prevent or guarantee we can overcome. Like religion, psychology doesn’t put food on the table or guarantee our so-called rights will be upheld.

        Life is challenging for everyone. But for some, it’s just one horror after another–and the interventions of psychiatry or psychology CANNOT guarantee relief. Nor should anyone HAVE to think a certain way just because modern psychology believes that way is “normal.” Yes, some people have reason to be depressed and negative. Some people have reason not to want to be here. Oh, and let’s not forget that while psychology and its political pundits enforce their transcendentalists beliefs about what is right and good regarding other people’s lives (there are no objective reasons any of their evaluations about life value must be true–not a single reason since science and empiricism are not evaluative–human minds form individually and culturally biased evaluations), many of these other people have to deal with financial destitution and unemployability because they can’t hold down jobs but aren’t eligible for any kind of “aid.” So who will take care of them when they can’t work and have no source of income in a world in which EVERYTHING is owned and has to be bought? But psychology forces them to stay alive?

        The greatest presumption I’ve ever come across is anyone else, especially a professional body, telling other legal adults how to feel about and what to do with the private lives those others aren’t living. If this worked, suicide rates would have plummetted across the world. The opposite is true.

        And I mean no insult to this article’s author, but there simply is no excuse, not a single valid one, for deliberating about the denial of rights others should have to make decisions about the only thing that we all have an ownership claim to–whether poor or rich: our own bodies. Unless at birth we are all the property of the State, it should be irrelevant what this article’s author or anyone else thinks regarding a legal adult’s decision to stay alive or end her/his own life.

        Sorry for the long comment.

      • Paul says:

        Tom H, I agree with you completely. Also add to it the fact that we have student loans in this country, and are forced to pay them back at the expense of our future, the health and well being of ourselves and our families. The problem comes down to fair and just. Those just do not exist in the world today sadly. If people are going to have to pay something they should have the right to be able to have the income to pay for it, or a waiver that excludes those that have to cut what most would deem necessary in life. People should not need lawyers to show that they are too poor and do not have enough income to pay bills. I hear all this worry about foreign terrorists. However they are not threatening me with fines, shutting off power and water to me and my family. They are not the ones that look the other way when my ex boss broke my face at work just because he felt like it. This is a sick world, and we need more concern about people here at home, the majority of people in this world. Besides from all that I have read the only reason that many groups including north korea are a threat to us is because we are getting into their internal affairs. We have many that work here to make life difficult for the masses, then when those same people get in the face of other countries and try to do the same to them and their people they call them terrorists because they are not willing to put up with it.

  83. Jeff H says:

    What do you do with someone who has gone past the point of no return and their only reason for not doing it just yet is that they are waiting for their parents to die first so they do not feel the guilt of the sons suicide. I think this person is beyond help as he has hated his life and wanted to die for as long as I’ve known him.

  84. Matthew says:

    I can relate to a lot of what’s been said here. I’m 43 and a writer. That probably says it all. I’m broke, alone and a total failure who’s addicted to the craft of creative writing and delusional to think I’ll ever succeed at it. When, in reality, I’m an untalented loser who loathes his existence.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Matthew,

      It’s painful to witness, even in these few words, your hatred for yourself. I have no doubt that your own pain is profound. Have you tried to get help? You don’t have to be alone with this these painful feelings.

      You can talk to your physician, or to a therapist, or to a religious leader if you’re religious, and so on. If you want to get help anonymously and for free, check out the Resources page for places you can do so by phone, text, email, or online chat.

    • Someone Somewhere says:

      I have huge dreams (I’m no writer but my dreams are artistic too. I’ve been crushed and downed and mocked and humiliated by others for having them so much that I hesitate to even tell anyone what they are) and man can I ever relate to this post. I share the same sentiments about my own dreams, the irony being they’re the only thing that I ever bother waking up for. Take my dreams away and I have nothing. I’m just getting older and more washed up year after year after year.

      This world definitely isn’t a friendly place to artistic types… it’s even worse now.

  85. Melissa says:

    Suicide in my opinion has its own definition for people. Everyone is different so certain situations are different. In my own situation I would because there is no help with losing a child. Its forever painful. No professional can help they just use medication. Now im not suicidal im learning to cope but the human body can take so much pain.

  86. Erin says:

    I have tried every antidepressant out there. There is no cure for mental illness and none of the doctors care about you anyway. Life is absolutely pointless. I don’t know why anyone would want to be here. I wish I was dead. Perhaps I can go to the Netherlands and they can help me with that.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Erin,

      I’m sorry you’re feeling so hopeless. It’s a terrible feeling. It sounds like you’ve gotten a lot of treatment and tried many different things. That said, I still want to point you to the Resources page in case you want to just talk with someone by phone, email, text, or online chat.

      May you feel at least a little hope again soon.

      • Puck says:

        I can understand why some people say life is pointless. One of the biggest games in this world is controlling people for amusement. That is amusement of those that have enough money to play such games, a billionaires game, and a game of governments.
        At one point in my life I did not see things this way, that was back when I could easily get any medication that I needed to keep myself healthy and able to think clearly, and for the most part pain free.
        Then also at that time education was for the most part affordable, $20 a semester to go to college. A person did not need medical insurance to see a dentist or for most other things, that is outside of a long hospital visit. Now times have changed for the worst. Everything his gone up in price, but the income of most people in nearly every country in the world.
        I know that I am not alone in noticing this, and personally I think that anyone that does not see it is mentally impaired to say the least. Nowadays I spend each day in ever increasing pain due to spinal stinosis, tooth problems and sinusitis. I also am unable to do things that most people can easily do because I do not think clearly because of the pain. This has me to the point that I have great difficulty communicating well, or even being able to file tax returns on time. However I’m told that it does not matter if I’m not in the hospital. When I get to the point that I will be in the hospital, that will be game over for me, as I will lose everything that gives me a reason to continue to be a part of the world. Same if the government does something to me. I care about myself and others, but I have to say it really sucks when the most workable option for me is to end my life. I do not want anyone to stop me if I get to that point, as if they really wanted to make a difference and not push me to that as being the best option, I would think that there would be people that would do so. All of the people that say that they want to help are only interested in one thing and that is stopping people from ending their life, but they outright refuse to do anything to help people from having a better option in life. Things such as helping people get a better job, helping them get the medications that they need, or other medical services. I do not feel that any sane person would think of ending their life if they had better options to the problems that make life unbearable for them.
        What is wrong with those that think that only talking is what most need. I’m willing to pay people to help me, that is when I am able to do so, and yet people refuse to help me find a better job even when I offer them $1000 to do so. That would be quite easy for me if I were earning what I should be and feeling better and thinking better.

        Years ago I chose not to have children, as I really do not want a child of mine to have life harder and less enjoyable than I have had. I am not one of those people that is so selfish that I would bring a child into the world, just so I could do what others have done before me. Also really what is the point to life to live as a slave, and to enjoy being a good slave to society and the banks with very little in return. It is things such as this that make me think about what I read in the book of revelations, where there will be many innocents to suffer needlessly before the nations that brought on the problems fall. Besides, a thinking person would realize that there are many things that book says that John wrote, first Mankind will be the cause of the fall of mankind, as in we cause the problems for ourselves and there are many others that cause our problems as well. In the end the problems will go full circle and those that are at the top will fall, then the world will be able to rebuild anew. The other part is a spiritual rebirth, and lastly there is the fact that it is a test to see if people are as a collective enough to keep the collapse from happening in the first place. Many from what I see are not, so their destruction does not bother me, but to me it is justice served. After all they are attacking me right now and working on more methods by making life more difficult for me and others because they do not want us to be able to self medicate. That is the only thing that currently is keeping me alive. I need do nothing to end my life, as our government will do it for me.

        I ask, prove me wrong!

    • MaryBeth says:

      Erin, I completely agree with you. I’m too tired to fight this battle any longer. No one wants to hear the truth about bipolar depression. I’ve been dealing with this for many years and now I’m just too exhausted to continue pretending all is well. Wish there was a magic pill that could ensure I’d sleep into the next life.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        MaryBeth,

        Bipolar depression can be excruciating, as you know all too well. I wonder if you’ve read the works of Kay Redfield Jamison. She is an expert on bipolar disorder – she co-authored a textbook on its treatment – and she herself has bipolar disorder. She emphasizes the need to see a professional who understands the distinction between bipolar and unipolar depression. And she talks about the need to combine treatments, relying not only on psychotherapy or medication or even ECT, but a mixture of them. Here’s one of her pieces: “Depression Can Be Treated, But It Takes Competence.”

        You might also find some of the information on the Resources page helpful. I hope you will check it out.

  87. Elena says:

    I just am tired. I’m in a bad marriage. But it’s not just the marriage or the loneliness. It’s everything. I have a daughter. I am so proud of her and I love her dearly. But next year she will be in college. My life has been so painful so hard and I just can’t anymore. I don’t have it in me to do this for my daughter anymore. I don’t want her to hate me or feel she had anything to do with it. No matter how many degrees I get I’m stuck in crappy jobs. I have a criminal record so my options are limited. No matter how much therapy and reading I do, I just am attracted to men that will suck the life from me. No matter how hard I try to maintain some form of stability my life is chaos. Chaos I create. Originally by June of 2018 I was considering killing myself by driving off a cliff. Now I’m researching life after death and may do it sooner. My life has been completely bad, it’s more painful then most. I made and make stupid choices and will pay for lifetime. I’m doom to work in a warehouse forever. It’s time I save myself the energy and go.

    • Crushed & Broken says:

      Hi Elena, I can feel your pain. I myself attempted to commit suicide back in 2015. I saw that it really hurt my son. I left him a note with my bank cards and info and told him to just keep them and don’t spend it all. When he came home and didn’t see me he became very worried. I didn’t tell him what I was about to do. I’ll share my story real quick. At the time when I was pressing to go forward I kept getting closed doors. It seems that I had to fight hard for everything. I was staying with my mother at the time and was expecting very important mail. My mother actually took the letter and hid it for her own selfish reasons. That took me over the edge because I questioned myself “why, why would she do that knowing I’m going through a hard time?” At that moment I became numb and wanted to kill myself. My oldest son cut off his relationship with me because I left his father due to bad treatment and started over in another relationship. I had worked so very hard to give both my sons the best and thought by leaving, I could give him the life he dreamt of but his father brainwashed him into thinking I was the bad guy. My exhusband joined a motorcycle club the 1st month he brought his bike. He cheated on me since we dated & was just caught having an affair. He wasn’t a good provider & I did everything and became tired. I gave him the option to choose between his family and the club so he decided to stay in the club, so I left. I didn’t want to but I felt like a prisoner in my own home. In the next relationship the guy tricked me and betrayed me even worse. I always worked temp jobs hoping to become permanent somewhere but never got hired. I became very sick with stress and lost so much weight but I kept pushing. It seemed the more I pushed the more things became worse & my exhusband partied more and got remarried the month after we divorced. He turned his back on my youngest son and I became a single parent. I had to move back to my mother’s house and that was so awful. So 1 day I wrote a note and planned how I was going to kill myself. I was going to buy alcohol and take it with my medications and go inside of Panera bread to do it. As I was on my way walking to Panera, I found a beige wallet inside of a shopping cart with like $350. Right there I knew it was a sign from God to go back home. So I walked home but still contemplated to kill myself. I began drinking and taking pills and told my brother and friend I was on my way out. All of a sudden there was a knock on the door and it was the police and ambulance. I was admitted in the hospital for 5 days. All they did was give me meds and sent me back out here in this world to fight alone. I guess they thought the meds were going to help but what about my problems I was facing? To this day things became way worse. I don’t wanna talk too long but I promised myself I would never try to commit suicide ever again. When my son comes home and I’m not there, he calls me asking where am I because I guess he’s afraid that I left or killed myself so I don’t want him to ever have to experience that again. Right now I feel so numb and hurt and I began to develop a relationship with God by prayer and worship every morning. I feel he’s not answering my prayers and has truly turned his back on me. It’s ok because I will never give up on god but I question a lot and it seems like all the bad guys and people that do wrong are winning. All I can advise is to tell you to hold on! I always hear that the bad days don’t last forever but I somehow can’t see that and just try to stay hopeful. I just want God to naturally take me but will never kill myself. Killing yourself will hurt your son/daughter tremendously. Please just take the good and hold onto that. I have my 5lb Yorkie whom I love for 10 years. Honestly I feel he’s the only thing that loves me. Not even my own sons love me but it’s ok. So please, for me, hold on and I will do the same

    • Anonymous says:

      Eckhart Tolle – The Power of Now. Please give the first chapter of this book a chance. It explains how your mind is a bit like being possessed by a paranormal entity. I know this sounds mad, and possibly is. I am not a genius obviously but Eckhart is. Please give it a try, go for three chapters.

  88. Crushed spirit & heart says:

    I don’t want to commit suicide, I just want to die. Life is hard, I didn’t ask to come here and it’s a shame I have to suffer. I never been happy no matter what I’ve done. I was in a bad marriage, left & tried to be in another relationship. That wasn’t even better until the point my health became affected & I had to move and stay with my mother. I feel my life went completely backwards because ever since I was young I always wanted to get away from living with my mother. I worked good jobs to the point I can no longer get a job anywhere, not even at a supermarket. I have so much to say but I just don’t understand and can’t believe that things will get better and this pain I’m feeling is only temporary. I say this because I was temping at a job last year & applied for the poisition permanently. Over years of trying to find an apartment when I was working, the 1 place I found I was approved for. Right after I got a yes for the apartment, I lost my job. I had to hustle to pay bills & my vehicle broke down. Sure enough after 4 months I lost my 1st apartment and had to go live back with my mother. She’s a very miserable and negative person and it doesn’t help being here with her. Even my exhusband, he dogged me so bad & actually remarried a month after our divorce. I have 2 sons and the oldest is on his own and my youngest I’m having such a hard time because their father doesn’t spend time with them at all. He waited until they were big to become a dead beat. I’ve applied to so many jobs, interviewed for positions and all I get are rejections. My last story: I met another guy and warned him that I was too hurt and didn’t want to be in another relationship. He wouldn’t accept no for an answer and slowly but surely I fell in love with him. Come to find out he was lying to me the whole time and was in a relationship with his baby moms. He actually moved in with her. So I feel like I get something and then I lose it. It’s like I see all the bad guys winning. I had a rough life and always was so positive and a fighter but what am I fighting for? I feel like I’m getting tortured each day I wake up. I pray every night that god would just let me die in my sleep. My spirit and soul is so tired.

  89. Angela says:

    I don’t think suicide should always be prevented. My depression has been really bad for nearly two years. Nothing will improve in my life. There is no support here. And a lot of people have turned their backs on me.

  90. Dave says:

    I am a 33 year old male. I have been suffering terribly from depression for a few years now. My ex fiance recently broke up with me. I have no job and live at home with my parents. Everyday I wake up hoping I will die on that day. I hate myself and my life. I just want to end the pain. My life is hopeless and I get no enjoyment from it. I just want peace.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Dave, it sounds like you feel hopeless and are hurting a lot. And it sounds like you feel convinced that the way your life is now is the way it will always be. I hope you will talk with someone about how you feel. You can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1.800.273.8255 (TALK). Also please check out the Resources page at http://www.speakingofsuicide.com/resources/#immediatehelp for places you can talk to somebody by phone, text, email, or online chat. You don’t have to hurt like this forever, and you also don’t have to die to avoid hurting like this.

    • Steve says:

      Dave, I feel your suffering mate. Remember you at least are living with your parents. There is love there. I live alone and have been feeling like this for almost 10 years now. Talk to your parents, you don’t want to continue on this route. For me I feel I’ve gone too far and can’t see it improving. When I do see a glimmer of hope the door shuts. I hope you get the help you need. Take care matey.

    • Anonymous says:

      Eckhart Tolle – Power of Now. Explains why your mind is not your friend and what you can do about it. Best Wishes.

  91. Mom says:

    Oh Stacey, I’d LOVE to hear you rationalize this. In March, a woman named Kathy Myers in Colorado obtained physician-assisted suicide for her end-stage COPD which was caused by being a lifelong smoker.

    So let me get this straight. You can spend your whole life smoking, which by now, we all KNOW (including Kathy), that it inevitably leads to disease, suffering, and in many cases death. So, in other words, smoking is officially a socially-acceptable and legally-sanctioned form of suicide. Hey, go for it! Smoke your life away and you won’t have to deal with the consequences of your actions!

    By contrast, take a person like me who was born with hereditary depression and had a traumatic childhood which compounded it, in which symptoms began before puberty. Endogenous depression lasting for decades causes INTENSE, unimaginable suffering, and a nonexistent quality of life. So a person in my case, through no fault of my own, is expected to live a life of endless suffering despite trying every treatment under the sun to no avail (years of therapy – CBT/DBT/EMDR, medications, ECT, alternative therapies, the list is a mile long), but a person who KNOWINGLY caused their highly preventable suffering and disease is offered a peaceful, painless death out in the open where family members can be with them in their final moments?

    Guess I should have started a 2-pack a day habit at 12 rather than being committed to health and wellness my whole life, and spending decades and tens of thousands of dollars on trying to heal myself of an illness which I didn’t CHOOSE. Why are sufferers of long-term, untreatable mental illness any less deserving of a peaceful exit from their incurable disease? Because they aren’t of sound mind? I’d argue that someone who smokes their life away isn’t exactly of sound mind either, so out the window goes that argument. A friend – who coincidentally is a chain smoker of extraordinary poor health – once accosted me for being “ABNORMAL!” for my wishes to end this lifelong torment and agony that I’ve tried SO HARD to heal myself from. I think it’s “ABNORMAL!!!” to be a chain smoker who takes shit care of oneself and can get a peaceful exit from the world once they start suffering from their poor decisions. I get how addicting smoking is, and hey, maybe for some that addiction is incurable just like for some with mental illness, it’s incurable. So how in the hell is this okay?

    I’m happy for Kathy for being able to have a peaceful, reliable, self-determined end of life. It’s a basic human right that should be available to EVERYONE, not just on an arbitrary basis based on society’s inability to understand the severity of suffering and exhaustion that comes with a lifelong uphill battle against an unrelenting depression. I can’t wait to leave this incredibly absurd world.

    • Someone Somewhere says:

      THIS. Just, THIS.

      I’ve even had smokers (and overweight people who are addicted to junk food, not that I’m judging them but I mean, dear god the irony) tell me the same thing if I tell them how life just isn’t for me. The only reason it’s legally acceptable to consume things that are potentially deadly such as tobacco and alcohol not to mention junk food (hell even stuff considered “health” food) that has ingredient lists that might stump a chemistry major is because the government stands to gain while other substances that do far less damage (if any) are still illegal depending on where you live or at least taboo though that’s besides the point. My own father died almost 12 years ago from a stroke… I came to an epiphany recently that he didn’t kill himself directly, but he did ostensibly by refusing to take care of himself even though he had warning signs all over (from bad body acne to borderline-narcolepsy to being rather overweight) telling him to take care of himself or pay the consequences. How am I any worse for wanting to die because I’m too genetically messed up being mentally and physically weak, butt-ugly looking like a keebler elf and rebellious to function in this world and I can barely even scrape by with the bare minimum of part-time work (if that) and did even worse when in school, only living for perhaps impossible dreams? Shouldn’t the world be happy if I killed myself for a defective, “lazy” dreamer willingly taking care of himself by dying than being a leech to the clogged-up overpopulated system at best?

      Though I don’t smoke Kurt Vonnegut was a smoker and had a great way of putting it “I am hopelessly addicted to cigarettes. I keep hoping the things will kill me. A fire at one end and a fool at the other.”

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Someone Somewhere,

        You communicate very poignantly, and powerfully, the depths of your feelings of hopelessness. I hope you will consider talking to someone about all this. You can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1.800.273.8255 (TALK) at any time if you are in the U.S. Also check out the Resources page for more places to anonymously get help.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      “Mom,”

      I’m sorry to hear of all the suffering you have experienced, suffering so intense that you want to leave this world. It sounds like you’ve tried a lot of different kinds of therapy and are still hurting. Maybe one of the places on the Resources page could help you, even if only a little; I hope you’ll try.

  92. D says:

    If we knew how to encourage a suicide, would we?
    (If the answer is “no”, perhaps we should stop)

    We as individuals are quick to put distance between ourselves and anyone who already feels alone. We suggest their fears and pains are invalid, or dismiss them as less valid than those of others. (Or dump on them our own problems.) We pathologize their quirks and foibles. We amplify their sense of “otherness” with a diagnostic label either attained from Dr. Google or with the aid of a “qualified medical professional”. We label minor differences and disagreement between them and us “probelms”. We are patronizing when we like them and treat them like societal outcasts when we don’t. And the most damning thing we do: We refer to them as a “them” when we are as them.

    Our society makes the daily struggle of life itself less cooperative and collaborative by the day. We’ve ramped up competition at every opportunity and increased the stakes of failure to global public ridicule and permanent social ostracism. We’ve passed the blame of systemic failures onto the individuals that have been failed by those systems. No job? It must be you. No skills? It must be you. No future? It must be you. We are punitive, retribution, and judgment based instead of generous, rehabilitative, and discernment based.

    The statistics on suicide are always changing but they never quite measure what is really going on. Suicidal individuals are trapped in a system which gives them only one way out. Unless the network of resources around someone reveals an alternative path that route out isn’t pretty.

    Suicide is a personal solution to a systemic problem.

  93. Nonni says:

    I kinda snickered at the whole ’90 percent’ thing. I mean, if someone succeeds, it’s not exactly like they’re going to be around to die another way. And it seems to me that no one is willing to consider the reverse, and that the people that are determined to die may actually result to overkill (if you will pardon the unintentional pun) in order to ensure the desired result.

    But I’d love to know a few things.

    1. What gives any of us, outside of directly affecting someone else’s physical safety, the right to dictate someone else’s life choices? The line of thinking can become very- well, very ‘not nice’. An example could be anything from tattooing to jobs.

    2. With the whole ‘it gets better’ movement, really? Perhaps these people would be willing to share next week’s jackpot numbers with me while they’re at it? For the people it does get better for, that’s great and wonderful. But I want to know what happens for those who they DON’T get better for. Certainly seems like a way to keep those already in emotional turmoil from trusting those who supposedly have their best interest in mind.

    3. Why do any of us think that we have some magical insight into the lives & psyches of others?

  94. Linda says:

    So lonely,all the people who truly loved me have died.
    So I feel I want to die too,the loneliness is unbearable

  95. Someone Somewhere says:

    I myself have decided to end my life very soon and there’s nothing anyone can do/say to stop me from this. Can’t say when or what’s going to be the last straw, but I can pretty much guarantee this IS going to happen. I am genetically screwed and was from the get go thanks to being cursed with my parents (especially my unhealthy father’s) bad genes thus me being cursed with extreme lethargy and bad skin and that can barely function in this world and can barely hold down a part time job much less 2 and have pretty much turned into a hermit recluse. I had huge dreams and they are/were pie in the sky, but they were the only things I lived for. I don’t have any prospects in this life, and I’m proud of myself for refusing to have children especially because I should’ve died in the womb like nature intended of me in the first place. I got all the bad genes from my parents and since I like kids I could never forgive myself for passing my bad genetics on to an innocent child. It’s one thing to make me go through this, but I could never live with myself forcing a child to.

    What makes me very mad about the anti-suicide stuff out there is how these people cannot admit that they don’t know how to treat someone who is suicidal. They are too full of pride and judgments to let go of their egos and actually LISTEN to anyone who is suicidal. They threaten these people with violence (I have been.) They call them stupid and cowardly. The authorities put them on suicide watch and throw them in jail. If they attempt and are thrown in the hospital, the staff might end up calling them “stupid” and “cowardly” too! Yeah, none of this stuff sounds triggering at all, does it? Most (if not all) of the people I know that are anti-suicide are very cruel and abusive deep down. They are the “misery loves company” types. They are control freaks who cannot let go of others and before anyone says anything yes, I have lost loved ones to suicide (maybe even an uncle, who attempted at least twice that I know of) and while there is an empty void where they once were, more than upset they are gone, at least they are truly in a better place than this god-forsaken overpopulated, polluted hyper-competitive hellhole excuse of an inhabitable planet. I also hate the phrase “permanent solution to a temporary problem” because very often, the problems of a lot of suicidal people are NOT temporary. Then there’s the jerks that go “get it over with then, you coward” and then in a twist of irony try to save their lives! It’s like “oh, you can’t dare point out your own shortcomings; I have that right because I’m better than you and I know what’s best for you!”

    “Why is suicide illegal? Because it’s destroying government property.” – Unknown

    “Honestly, life isn’t for everyone.” – Doug Stanhope

    • Paul says:

      I agree, and you are so very much correct on all your points. Also if these control freaks were really interested in making the world a better place they would listen to those that want out. They would take all of the things that people say that want to die and turn each and every thing that they say on its head. That will not happen though because those control freaks want people to suffer and for them and their friends to make a profit off of it in one way or another. Be it for profit prisons, hospitals, etc. All billed to unsuspecting tax payers, so all of us pay far more than we would be if people we have in office really did have a heart and worked to make this world a much better and enjoyable planet. We have many many highly skilled people that are unable to afford to enjoy life because of these control freaks. I dream of the day when people will by the millions borrow millions to get doctorate degrees, and when they are done either skip the country or end their life when the bill comes due instead of trying to pay it. There is more than one way to kill this beast that lives in most countries of this world. One of the best is for people to not try and better themselves, and have as many children that they possibly can, and have all of the people on public assistance. After all the beast in the book of revelations is alive and well. It is quite obvious from the actions. There is no devil, but people that act as a large group that makes up the devil, they are the control freaks in this country and every other country on this planet. There will be many innocents die, and this is also in one of the chapters. The bible is not some mystical book, but a book of history, stories, and many other allegories. Also the end is coming to this country and others, and this is because of the people driving things that way. It does not have to happen but will because there is much profit in causing suffering. Selling weapons to both sides, security, and many other things. Just like terrorism, it is to get people to act, and it would not be effective or keep happening if ignored. It is another part of psychology, and yes the best and brightest killing themselves to get out from under student loans is both very sad, and on the other hand not all that surprising.

  96. James C says:

    I found your article very self serving, short sighted and narrow minded. If people want to die that’s their free will and they are entitled to it. We didn’t have the choice whether to be born, but we do have the choice when to die and that’s a wonderful gift. No one in society should shame another if they decide to take their own life, it really isn’t any of their concern/ you can never know another’s struggles enough to tell them whether they should keep living. Stay in your lane, stop being so judgmental of others if they decide they want to commit suicide, your concern really has no bearing on what they are going through. You are being self absorbed and despotic in your attempt to dictate what others should do. Sometimes the kindest and most rational thing to do is to let someone end their own pain. Pragmatism and the hope for a more peaceful existence can manifest itself as suicide.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      James,

      I’m sorry that you view my attempts to help others so negatively. I understand your argument philosophically, but realistically I also know that many people who were feeling abjectly suicidal are now grateful to be alive today. And they are thankful to those who helped them to not act on their suicidal thoughts. (For just one powerful example, read the story of Kevin Hines.) I hope you will consider those people, too, when making your argument against suicide prevention.

      Thank you for contributing to the discussion and for giving me this opportunity to address what no doubt many other readers are thinking, too.

  97. im_id says:

    no, I know in terms of some others I never suffered enough , I just feel like I am an outsider no one understand , I am such a failure in every aspect I thought of trying ,ok I am tired I don’t want to try anymore , actually I can’t try anymore I can’t tolerate someone telling me I have no fucking future , ok suck life I don’t need it

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      im_id,

      Are you getting any help? It sounds like you’re believing the worst edicts of your mind, without entertaining other possibilities.

      If you’re in the U.S., please consider calling 1.800.273.8255 (TALK), which is a 24-hour hotline. Wherever you are, you can check out the Resources page on this site at http://www.speakingofsuicide.com/resources/#immediatehelp.

      I hope you will reach out to someone, but someone who is supportive and constructive, not toxic to you!

  98. Cameron says:

    The world was never meant to give second chances. Once you blow it, you blow it. Of course this isn’t really the only reason where there could be rational suicide, as often the bad things that happen in our lives are due to other actions we had no control over. I want to die myself. I feel that I have no purpose, and that I’m a burden on society. A lot of people make claims like this up, but I really can’t find anything positive about myself except for the little things. What I’m trying to say is, rational suicide can be indeed rational. Ending ones suffering will only help them, if its not possible by treatment while they’re alive. I do however think that without a proper diagnosis of the person’s mental disorder it would be irrational.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      “A lot of people make claims like this up, but I really can’t find anything positive about myself except for the little things.”

      The little things are no small thing, Cameron! Especially when they are positive things about yourself.

      On a different note, I think you will find that many people have been granted second – and even third, and fourth, and 20th – chances. If you want to read more about them, check out these sites:

      Stories of Hope and Recovery

      Live Through This

      Also, it might help you to listen to the story of Kevin Hines, who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge and survived: I Jumped Off the Golden Gate Bridge.

      I hope that you feel more hope for yourself, and for life, soon.

  99. Joe says:

    In the last 15 yr i have lost my son and his mother to a drunk driver. I’ve lost majority of my family. The other day i found out that a very dear friend had been killed. I have few friends, next to nothing to show for in 31 yr. Im legally retarded in the state i live in. I have been depressed since i was 6 when my sisters were taken from me. Every person i meet is using me for something be it everything i have or just what they can take. Relationships dont happen since forever, and im not the nicest person but thats the end result of a shit stained life that wasnt wanted in the first place.
    No amount of therapy has ever helped me. The one thing that haz been there my whole life is the concept that i can end it any time. That has been the only thing thats ever been true.

  100. Vikas says:

    i want to die i dont have a job never had a girlfriend and now my career is like over its just over now i cant earn enough to have a family i am gonna die alone im pathetic i always make bad decisions people are gonna laugh at me i will become a joke in society so i guess its better to go nobody is gonna miss me….

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Vikas,

      I’m sorry you’re feeling so hopeless. Please check out the Resources page for places where you can get help by phone, text, email, or online chat. And remember, just because your mind is saying all these bad things about you doesn’t mean they’re true.

  101. Anonymous says:

    No. It should never be prevented for the people that do have a genuine reason to die. This is because the average of their feelings is very much in the negative and so it is clearly preferable to go. That’s rationality in this debate. You don’t really love someone selflessly if you would rather them suffer for a lifetime now do you? ‘Mentally-normal, helpful’ people are sick. People may change their mind about suicide to die of other causes. However, obviously they’re likely to live a life of guilt for their continued desire to die, hurting the selfish people left behind. The reality is sad.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Anonymous,

      I understand that you feel strongly about this, but I have a question: How do you know?

      That is, how do you know that the feelings of someone with a “genuine reason to die” will remain “in the negative”?

      How do you know that someone will “suffer for a lifetime”?

      How do you know that people who are suicidal and choose not to die by suicide are “likely to live a life of guilt for their continued desire to die”?

      I don’t think you – or I, or anyone – can know any of those things.

      I do know, however, many people (and of many people) who were certain that they would never feel better, or would never want to live, and who now feel very differently. If you’re interested in reading the stories of just a small fraction of those people, here are some places to start:

      Stories of Hope and Recovery

      Live Through This

      Suicide survivors of Reddit, what was your first conscious thought after you realized that you hadn’t succeeded? (Note that this one contains graphic descriptions of suicide attempts, but the words of the survivors will, for many people, outweigh the risk for triggers.)

      Good luck to you, Anonymous!

  102. James Harps says:

    I’m piss broke and can’t hold down a job. I’ve got plenty of education and certifications, but that means nothing since I don’t know the right people and I don’t come from a financially well off family. I HATE the fact that most of the world functions on consumerism because it leads to do much waste and debt. I’m trying to figure out why I should keep living in a world that I hate as I feel like I have no purpose in society except to be a burden to those who have accepted the societal norms. I don’t think like most people, in fact I do everything I can to help people because I know how much this financial system sucks the life out of you. Seeing the world become what it has has made me wish for an apocalypse or global collapse for years now. I don’t want to see the human race die off I just want all the bullshit laws and politics to fall in to disarray so that we as a globe will try to start over again but focus on a global functionality rather then profit.

    As a child I loved the thought of a world that worked for a common goal, but as I’ve grown older I’ve come to the acceptance and conclusion that the world will never work in harmony for a global success and instead this world will die from human ignorance and greed.

    So in closing I ask again. “Why bother living anymore?”

  103. Anonymous says:

    i tried kill myself twice but both times someone found me and take me to hospital
    i don’t really wanna be here, i’m alone, i don’t enjoy life,
    i’m thinking for the third time but hopefully this time no one can find me

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      So sad that you are suffering, Anonymous. Please look here for places where you can get help by phone, text, email, or online chat.

    • Rob Z says:

      I know the pain. If it weren’t for my cats, I’d be done. For now, find the thing, people, something that’s stopped you so far and grasp that.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        So true, Rob, cats (and other pets) are many people’s reason for living. And even if they can’t have cats, they can help rescue them or volunteer at a shelter! It only takes one thing.

        Thanks for sharing your great advice.

    • Joseph says:

      I can promise you that no matter how deep the trials of this life may seem, you are not alone, and one day, the light will come.

    • Reverend Ane says:

      You are not a lone, many times I have been told I should kill myself, I was wasting space and I am still here a Reverend and a mom so when you feel life is not worth it remember God chose your life and he has big plans for you. Who knows you may be our next president, or the person who cure AIDS, or cancer, even Parkinson.

  104. Lisa P says:

    I’m 57, and I’ve spent my entire life wishing it would end. Abusive father, indifferent mother, a sister who grew up knowing it was perfectly okay to beat me up too, because in our house, I was to blame for everything. I haven’t lived in that house for decades, my father died in 2002, and still I can’t get rid of the ghosts of self-hatred and self-loathing that I grew up with. I’ve spent the last 20 years on meds for bipolar, but I was never bipolar, just unlucky enough to have a bad psychiatrist and no ability to see through the drug fog. Now the new doc says I have avoidant personality disorder, two rounds of TMS later, I’m still as chronically depressed as I was since age 4, and SSRI’s don’t work for me. I haven’t worked in 20 years, and have zero self-esteem or self-worth, because my life has no value. I’m worth more dead only because of a life insurance policy, but of course, even though I’ve been paying on it for more than 20 years, I’ve got the only policy on the planet with a permanent suicide clause in it, so I couldn’t even get that right. No way out for me from my misery, because I’d just become a bigger financial burden…

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Lisa,

      It’s unfair how much some people suffer. I feel that way reading your comment. I hope you are able to get help that truly does help you. If you want to talk with someone by phone, email, chat, or online text, please check out here a list of places where you can do that.

    • Anonymous says:

      I have the same problem and diagnosis. Abusive father, indifferent mother and also abusive sister. Some people should be sterilised to prevent from inflicting such horrors on their unsuspecting children.

    • Joe Blow says:

      I’m BY NO means encouraging you to commit suicide. I think it’s generally an awful choice to have to make, but nonetheless, it is a basic human right even if society tries to tell you that it knows better than you the value of your own life, or worse, that you don’t even have ownership of your life. It sounds like you’ve tried everything which I can completely relate to, as well as the abusive/neglectful upbringing. I do hope you find something that helps alleviate your suffering. Have you tried ECT as a last resort? It does work for some people when nothing else has worked.

      Getting to the point of my response to you, I believe you are incorrect about your life insurance policy, assuming you reside in the USA. State insurance laws supersede insurance clauses, and I would check with an insurance lawyer (or just post a question on JustAnswer.com – it’ll cost $5-10 to get an answer from a practicing and licensed insurance attorney in your state) about your policy because I’ve been a licensed insurance broker/financial advisor, and I’ve never heard of such a thing outside of the standard 2 year contestability period (sometimes that period is only one year, depending on state, even for suicide). Your insurance company can have whatever clauses it wants to have, but if your state law dictates something else (which in many cases they do), the clause doesn’t mean a darn thing. Of course, insurance companies always bank on people not being aware of their rights and this is how they literally get away with keeping millions and millions of dollars per year in death benefits that legally should have been awarded but weren’t because families just took the insurance company’s automatic denial as the final word rather than consulting an attorney.

      Here’s an article that discusses the topic: http://time.com/money/3117698/how-life-insurance-policies-deal-with-suicide/

      • mmmokhtar says:

        let us start from the worst case ,say a man has no job ,no income , no home , no family , suffering a permanent illness and can not pay for medicines , starving ,not insured , cursed and humiliated by every one because of his extreme poverty , if a man like this is thinking of sucide do you still call it an awful decision to commit sucide?

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        mmmokhtar,

        I don’t think there’s a formula for when suicide is justified or not. There are many people who suffer the exact fate you describe, and they do not die by suicide (or even want to). And there are physically healthy people who live in affluence and die by suicide. Suicide and suffering are both mysterious in who they claim and who they spare. Resilience and joy are equally mysterious. The amazing thing is we really have no idea what comes next, in life or beyond.

  105. Anonymous says:

    It’s considered “humane” to “put an animal out of their suffering”… but why not those of us who are also suffering so much mental anguish every day? Where’s the “humanity” in that?

  106. Anonymous says:

    is there any way to die easy with sure results? , that may help suicide thinkers , i can not understand why some people want the other people to struggle and suffer life , it is only sadism isn’t it , OK if you want some body to live with that insistence then help him out of his sufferings if you can not help then shut your mouth, this law against sucide should be eliminated if we can not help these suicidal people

    • Joseph says:

      Life is a great blessing, even if full of suffering. There is always something to cling to, and that is faith and hope. Even if it is hard to see, like the sun when our side of the earth is turned from it, the light will come.

  107. no onje says:

    Unfortunately there is no provision for assisted suicide in our law, so I will simply have to do it on my own. Probably it will be more painful and results will be less certain, but in the end no one has the right to prevent you from exiting your life.

    • Joseph says:

      I promise there is hope. There are those in the world who care for you and would miss you. God loves you as well, and wants you to live. If nothing else, i care about you.

  108. Anonymous says:

    Epilepsy sucks like life

  109. Anonymous says:

    I want to die because there is no help out there all I get from the doctors is “keep taking the tablets “”I can’t get you help try online forums””Sorry your 10 mins are up I have other patients to see.”as they escort you out the door or at A&E “take these tablets I can’t refer you as you’ve not taken anything or hurt yourself yet” “go back to your doctor he may refer you for evaluation ” in other words I’m not worth the effort .

  110. Brittany Odle says:

    Remember you matter. There is Nothing in this world that is worth taking your precious life: death, being in debt, getting hurt, losing someone, its not worth it, its all temporary amd you will get through it. Its a phase. I will care if you die :(((((( please Just loveeee yourself and love others. ♡♡♡ forgive yourself and do something for someone. Email me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com
    because you matter and I care for you. I am here to listen to you, i am here to cry for you. I am here to pray for you. YOU MATTER!!!! ♡♡♡♡♡♡

  111. Anonymous says:

    you know what i feel from all comments ,it is that we are at the end times ,all the world is becoming unbearable , the lucky one who is letting go first , terminating self life i think it is absolutely self decision , and i do believe that the ones who are thinking of sucide are the best among people they should not stay in this corrupted hopeless world , by the way when is Jesus coming back ? it is the correct time for his coming -it is now only useless world

  112. Lily says:

    Some of the posts on this site made me realise that my own issues are not so bad. I hope that all those suffering are having a better day.
    I have lived with anxiety, on/off depression, and other issues since I was 13. I am now 51 years old.
    I have good times, bad times, been optimistic and pessimistic. I have wanted to die at times and other times cried so much because I did not want to die, as I loved life too much.
    I am scared of death. I think it might be about how I will feel before it happens, if I happen to be awake. I am not scared of afterwards.
    Being 51 and a young for my age and healthy person, I have a feeling that I may last until quite an old age, and people in my family have tended to live to old ages.
    I want to live but not as I feel now. Compared to some others I have it good, but there are also troubling issues which have made me as I am including genetics.
    When I hear of people ending their lives I am saddened, but also if a person is very unhappy then who can blame them. Who can criticise? It is a personal and private choice.
    Life is a crock of crap for many people in this world, no matter how much they try to improve things. The only way is to never giving up trying to improve, in order to get out of the situation and build a good as it can be life. I imagine having some horrendous illness can make this impossible,but some people do find joy in some things even when very unwell. Don’t they?
    Even in some of my darkest and bleakest hours, there was always a point where I thought “Ok, so what happens now, I suppose I just have to carry on” The next day or however long it took, I would often feel so much better. This is what scares me about suicide. I have had the blackest and bleakest of times, but there have been such happy and perfect times too, that I am glad I have experienced.
    I often think, that if I were to end my life, what if on my way to that point of death, I regretted my actions, and it was too late to do anything about it. Maybe I was trying to end my life because I had been unhappy for so long or just on that day, but by ending my life I was ending any chance of experiencing any possible happiness too.
    No one can rule out happiness ever happening.
    I find personal happiness,, contentment and fulfillment in caring for my dog and cats and petitioning for animal rights. That makes me feel better. To some that may be nothing, but for me it does help me, however I do feel that my life has no meaning, so I try to give it meaning. I do think helping others is the best way to do this.
    People’s life circumstances can change for the better and some people seem to live a crappy life all their life.
    We either try to improve even if it is just by doing 1 positive thing a day, no matter how small that may be, or just be here contemplating suicide and life and its meaning, which is what I tend to do a lot of.
    I have an amazing daughter who is doing so well in her life and career. She is everything that I am not. I am immensely proud of her. I would hate for her life to be ruined, which it would, as we adore each other, if I ended my life. I cannot put her through that pain.
    I just don’t understand why I am meant to be here. Maybe I was meant to have a child who is doing very well.
    Years ago people died earlier. At 51 years old I feel like it is all over.
    I am still to scared to end my life, and if I were told tomorrow that I have a terminal disease, I know that I would be devastated, and wanting to live. Maybe I will always feel in a limbo state until it is my time.
    My thoughts are with people on this site. Some of your stories brought me to tears. I hope that you feel a little better.
    Please don’t give up on life easily. Compared to being dead, I think being alive with its suffering and occasional times of contentment is better than death. Death will find us all one day anyhow regardless, so….

    • Brandon says:

      Actually i wonder if the realization of life’s catch 22 is what sends people over the edge. As it goes, if you’re damned either way, why pretend that the good times won’t abandon one in the end

  113. Anonymous says:

    any body who experienced life such as you will come to the same conclusion let us good people go there is no room for us in earth -enough

  114. niki d says:

    No. I think people should be left to their own devices. This world is too much, too many people can’t find their place in it. So many others aren’t allowed a chance to grow or prosper. Dying and killing yourself should be allowed, and society, which is too busy to deal with its rotten parts and lack of attention to such things, should realize that people want suicide because society treats people horribly. The family structure is gone, mental support is almost un existing , the world is not a fair place to live, struck by violence and greed. I’d say yes for suicide and I encourage people to do so. For it is the only way out of this slavery for nothing.
    sorry.

  115. Hayley says:

    I am considering suicide. I am in my 50’s, and at the peak of my work experience and capacity to enrich and educate the next generation- but because I am an “old woman,” I am considered to be useless. Without a use, I am nothing, and there really is no reason to continue consuming needed resources. I will make my decision in the next few weeks.

    • J says:

      I do hope you will reconsider. Please read some of these articles. I found it interesting that such a high percentage of suicidal survivors wanted to live. Maybe the feeling of uselessness comes from your occupation or those you spend a great deal of time with. Sounds like you are an educator? Maybe you could be educating older adults? I don’t know, but it would seem that everyone needs educating, no matter what their age. I am a 59 year old female, though I am not (and you are not) an “old woman”. Have a good 30 years ahead of us! Hope to hear from you again soon. 🙂

    • Rob Z says:

      Reach out to me. I feel the same – I have much to offer, but no one wants me at all. I understand your position, 100%, really. I’d be dead now, but my cats need me. They are my thread that keeps me going.

    • Joseph says:

      I promise you that you matter. We are are God’s literal children, and you are a beloved Daughter of God. He cares for you and loves you. I promise you that hope is there to find. The world will suffer a great loss if you leave us.

  116. Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

    I’ve received a lot of requests to re-open the comments for this and other posts on the site. It has been a rich and lively, if at times challenging, conversation. May it continue!

  117. Socio Pathos says:

    I want to. I have tried twice, The first time I just got really sick. But I was euphoric in the thought of ending. The second time my brother walked in, after I swallowed the entire box of sleep pills and called hospital. I still won’t speak to him. I want to die, I want to end. Logically, rationally and with evidence for the thoughts. I am a sociopath, I hurt things, I kill things, Some are self aware others are not quite so endowed. I was introduced to philosophy a while ago. I thought it would be a great way to learn to manipulate for my own ends. I instead, looked logically at what I am. I serve no purpose other than to destroy the things around me. I have no fear of death. Fuck I have no fear at all. i am very good at what I do. I know because I have never gotten caught, Nor am I under any investigation. HA HA HA! I am on the inside there. The fact remains that I am a destructive force of nature that despises the objects around me for their weakness. This is the only honest thing I have ever said. I say it to an object, because meat-bags are too stupid to realize they are food for things like me. i will soon find a way to do this.

  118. Veronica Horton says:

    The act of existing is not benign to other beings; anyone who’s not going to adopt a strictly vegan diet and basically go off and live in a cave somewhere is alive through killing other beings; your home was once wilderness, anything manufactured that you own required destruction of habitat and life, you can’t walk without crushing insects. For someone to prevent a being who wants to die from dying, they’re forcing that person to continue destruction of other life, the other life which, presumably, wants to live.

    • Anonymous says:

      How intense and Truthful. I can’t quite grasp the origins of life and understand it’s meaning. I hang on to the love I feel for the TRUTH and my loved ones, that’s the only reason I hang on to each day with little desire for it’s boredem and ugliness. I feel for you and your pain. I wish that we as living beings can find some meaning to this madness we call life.

  119. kate says:

    I just don’t want to be here… life is not as expected. I think I’ll stay until my pooch dies, but after that? not much reason. and how am I expected to live without a partner or money? better and easier not to….

    • Heartbroken Doggie Mommy says:

      Neither is mine. I am 52, I am not the oldest and certainly not the youngest so I want it to be my time now. Every time I think I am getting somewhere in life the rug gets pulled from under me. I don’t do life well, not a very good earthling. I want to return to my spirit self on the other side. Others seem to be able to have jobs, romantic relationships / marriages that last forever, tons of friends everywhere, tons of family that they are madly in love with, doggies that they have until it’s their time to go to the rainbow bridge, etc. I never wanted human children so I am okay with that.

      I now live like a child in my parents’ home (not as cushy as you would think) and it is HELL. Lost my home, lost my baby (a 5.5 year old Yorkie boy that I had to give away so he can have a better life and don’t want to live on this earth anymore without him), not working, feel like I can’t work anymore or get a job. I want to hide from everyone. I live my life as close to death as possible by sleeping as much as I can (it’s 8:10PM EDT right now and past my bedtime lol). I love the dark night and can’t stand the daylight. I go to bed very early and wake up late. I had a dream that I was in a dark tunnel and a truck spilled some black gravel on me. I was suffocating, got scared and got up but was still in the tunnel. I should have hung in there as I think I may have missed my window of opportunity to leave this life. I wonder if this was sleep apnea happening during that time. Advil and Tylenol PM is my best friend. Each night I pray that I don’t wake up and each morning I am still here but what’s happening is that I am being killed slowly instead of just disappearing to the other side. I actually envy people who have died in their sleep. George Michael, Joni Sledge, and the like. Bring them back and take ME I say, TAKE ME!!!

      I used to want to live a long, long time and grow old with my little doggie. I thought he’d wear his little doggie designer tux at my wedding, marrying the love of my life, whomever that was going to be, with me walking down the aisle with him but now that he’s gone (not just a dog but the love of my life) and my life is a hellish mess of my own creation … not so much now. I am afraid of suicide and I don’t have the means to make it happen so I am stuck here. I am as healthy as a horse physically. Apparently suicide runs in my family as my father and maternal aunt both committed suicide with a gun. Quick and it worked.

      We all should be allowed to decide when we want to leave this earth. I think it’s selfish to will someone to stay here when they don’t want to. WHY??? So they don’t have to go to a funeral, so they don’t have to feel sad or guilty for 5 minutes. Are they going to fix everything for you, give you a billion dollars so you can live??? NOPE!!! And people always say what they would have done for you AFTER you are gone anyway!!! Please… In a week when the hoopla of the funeral is over they will be planning their vacations ans going on with their lives. Let me go, no one will know I am gone anyway and maybe I can be a spirit and visit my doggie and keep an eye on him ❤️❤️❤️???;)

    • Jamie says:

      What’s your booby’s name? that’s what I call my babies ( I have 2 cats and a doggy). I love them so and sometimes get the feeling of self termination. I literally cannot breathe without them nor do I want to. The thought of self annihilation gives me hope, but like you i cannot bear the idea of leaving my love ones in this mess. It will be nice to know your baby’s name and don’t ever feel like you’re alone. When i read your comment I thought to myself, how can my words come from someone else? The truth is that we’re all vulnerable to the Truth and we care too much to carry on. Hang in there, I need your support. My babies are sending you a HUGE hug.

  120. Kat says:

    This is ignorant rubbish. There is a massive difference between wanting to kill yourself and wanting to not live anymore. Without physician assisted suicide the suicide process is almost guaranteed to be awful and it is perfectly possible to not want to have a painful death but still want to end your life.

    We also have a ridiculous attitude to suicide which seems to begin and end with stopping people from killing themselves. Successfully killing yourself or living you whole entire life wishing you could kill yourself – which is worse? Aren’t they both problems? Aren’t they both worthy of attention? But what we focus on is trying to stop people in crisis from succeeding in an attempt. How about we set society up so that as much as possible people are not made miserable? So that when they are miserable they can count on support and understanding?

    As for the rather woolly ‘people might find different ways to cope’ well yes, they might. It is perfectly possible for an entirely rational person to look at and assess their quality of life and decide that, of course they might be able to improve their situation or their coping skills, but what they would prefer is to die.

    I am opposed to physician assisted suicide because of what it says about the value of certain groups of people to society if we offer state sanction to their suicide – it is essentially saying ‘you fall into a category society considers to be worthless’ but I am opposed also to neoliberal politics which make so many people’s lives (quite rationally) unbearable.

    Why do western countries have an obsession with medicine ‘saving’ increasing amounts of people’s lives only to offer them such poor quality of life?

  121. Savannah says:

    Im 18, and have had depression since I was 7. Yes, 7. I found an old diary of mine from 2005 (which was when I was 7) and it filled with nothing except how depressed I was, and detailed plans of how I would kill myself. I have been hospitalzed 9 times. Sure, I feel better for a few months sometimes, I even made it over a year. But it always comes back. Its always there, and it always will be. Why would I want to spend the rest of my life like this? Why are people keeping me from killing myself? Its kind of cruel to me that people wont let others die knowing the agony theyre in. I will live the rest of my life with depression. I dont have any money, I cant move out of my house with my literally crazy dad. I cant hold down a job because of my depression and anxiety. I dont have any friends or socialization at all. Whats the point???

  122. Ann says:

    I’m 37 and missed all of the milestones that make being human worthwhile. Never been in a healthy relationship. I don’t even know how to have one. At this point I am so profoundly damaged and broken that nobody could ever love me. I don’t know what the point of waking up in the morning is, I am always sad when I wake up like, “why?”
    I just can’t relate to anyone and I always feel alone in a crowd, no matter where I am. I know others have it much worse.

    • David says:

      Well I’m 44 and can completely relate. The only thing I wouldn’t agree with is that no one could love you. I know it may feel that way but don’t discount the capacity of others. That being said I’m not saying it will happen…like I said I’m 44 and my history with relationships is laughable at best, basically I’ve had 1 relationship that I knew wouldn’t last from the very beginning but sometimes the craving for human companionship and affection from someone is extremely hard to resist. It’s not healthy to live life so disconnected from other people. But if you are like me it’s not by choice….it’s just that no one seems to think the same or have the same values. Of course when just leaving the house is a miracle then that can dampen the possibilities just a bit 🙂 Feeling completely disconnected from the human race is something I sadly have in common with you.

      I wish you the best and hope things change for you Ann.

  123. Kathi says:

    Mike – Your comment is perfectly worded. When I am going through a deep depression, it is mentally & physically exhausting. I compare it to being sucked into a whirlpool of despair. You are correct. It is nearly impossible to find the energy to crawl out of that deep black hole and there are statements that, while well intentioned, are just not helpful, platitudes like “Everything happens for a reason”. If that is true, then explain why my sisters and I were physically & mentally abused for two years by our housekeeper, including being thrown down stairs, which resulted in one sister developing a seizure condition and dying at 36 and another being so traumatised that she has BPD (borderline personality disorder) and had spent her life in and out of rehabs for alcohol & drug addiction. Why is a child born with CF or Progeria? This is an ugly world that tends to be very unkind to those who are not capable of cruelty.

  124. anonymous says:

    What if has been a therapist that has caused your life to be misery ?

  125. jacob says:

    suicide is the only way to permanently stop pain. There are unbearable levels of hopelessness and pain that are unjustified for someone to keep living with

  126. m.m. says:

    i absolutely agree with you specially you are talking about over 60 age this is the most difficult stage of human life , of course age discrimination is valid everywhere , mistakenly employers get older age as lack of physical ability to work this is not always true unless one have serious disease to hinder his physical ability , i know too much people who are on the same age but pretty strong to perform work , employers always oppressing they dig to find any weakness of applicants due to the lack of demand over opportunities , please do not surrender to this none sense and wait for god say on your life , do not submit others the opportunity to eliminate you from life , i know this type of wickedness that good people are suffering from and believe me that if you are young employers will tell you that you lack experience what is this ignorance it is just position pride , so more patience is required when it comes to this end then surely god will provide you with opportunity to live if he does not then he will take you safely to another world , do not worry my friend you are not alone

  127. Brittany Odle says:

    You guys matter. You were made for a purpose i am here if you want to talk. I love you all. ♡♡♡

  128. Brittany Odle says:

    I am here if you want to talk. Email me Jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com. i love you guys ♡♡♡♡

  129. Kathleen says:

    I am 61 years old, cannot find work, am ineligible for unemployment and have realized that my usefulness as a human being is not recognized by most. I have plenty of experience, but no college degree, which basically makes one equal to the village idiot these days. I am tired of putting everything into an interview and then finding that I did not get the job. I just fixed my credit and have been trying to pay my bills on time, but am down to $1300 in my 401K and up to $3,000 on my credit card. I am just so tired of fighting what appears to be a losing battle. What is the point of continuing life? I have a sister who cannot understand that lending her money I don’t have is an issue. I am a miserable person and it wouldn’t be difficult to picture life without me as better for family and friends.

    • Brittany says:

      Kathleen nothings worth killing yourself. You matter!!!!!! Being in debt and have to pay a lot of money doesnt value who you are. You were made for a purpose. If you want to talk I am here to listen email me jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com.

    • cz says:

      If it makes you feel better I’m more useless than you! I live in a town that I was relocated to so no one knows me here. I don’t have friends that I see. I’ve emptied my 401k down to $7000, no degree, can’t get a person to hire me for more than $5.00/hr. I have about $30,000 in debt. I’m ready to die! I just don’t want to die in debt for my family to then absorb. I’m more concerned about what happens after I kill myself. I don’t want my family to have to take care of so much.

  130. Anonymous says:

    My 40 years of “life” have been a constant hell. Everyone says things will get better. But they dont. Ive tried counselling meds ect. The results always the same. Im alone my life is only of value to others. Im already dead so why should i drag out the suffering just to keep others feeling a false sense of life. Im sick of hearing that im the unwell one. Were all dead eventually. Whats the problem with short cutting the pain?

  131. Jacob says:

    There is so much “talk” about the value of life and the joys to come. Our American society cherishes war and does not generally accept the existence of mental illness (see Tony Robbins). So, life is expendable as long as it contributes to a large corporation’s profit margin.

    Hypocrisy aside, right now I want to kill myself. I had my 15th ECT treatment three days ago. The positive effect is lasting for shorter time periods each time. I am bi polar with mixed episodes.

    For some reason, I am waiting for permission to carry out my plan. Given the emotional pain, this is irrational. I am 64 years old, so my life is nearing its end anyway. I have been thinking about suicide almost every day since I was 15.

    I happen to have an appointment this morning with my therapist and I am sure he will suggest yet another hospital stay. I am going to have to refuse, or pretend to agree and end my life. I have tried almost every pill they make. I have tried ECT. I have tried suicide, and almost made it. I won’t make the same mistake again.

    Suicide is not a knee-jerky reaction to not getting your way. It is a considered response to how your mind is attacking your body. When science fails, and God allows the pain and suffering to persist, it becomes clear that God has given me permission to terminate.

    So, I have my permission, I have the means and I have the desire. I also have a family. I would hate to disappoint my children, but it might be a greater injustice to let them grow up thinking life is kind. My wife – she understands her convenience, but little else. I had planned to renew our vows, but, ECT, therapists and psychiatrists haven’t helped. Unless something doesn’t change very soon, I have no intention of continuing to live that long.

    It has not been a good life. I really can’t see it getting much better. I am not a Christian so I have never subscribed to their threats. I think I just had to talk to understand my options. In all, suicide makes the most sense. I don’t know when I will implement my plan. But I do hope your prayers will be with me as I go to a God that understands me.

  132. Anonymous says:

    I have been sick for 20 years. I have been diagnosed with myriad things. Bipolar, Joint Hypermobility Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Unknown Neurodegenerative disese, and now a possible Brain infindibulum or aneurysm. I am in constant pain, have not slept through the night in a decade abd I have no social life…too sick to do anything I have tried it all to no avail. I hate this life. I would love to have even a little joy, but some assholes think I should just be happy to be alive. The only reason I have not killed myself is because I tried and failed and the idea I could live in a worse condition than this is horrifying. I pray for death every night.

  133. Aiah Z says:

    I found this site as I was searching the Internet for information on self determination. Most of what I would add to this discussion has already been covered by others. As a woman, I wonder that I can terminate a life growing inside me based on others’ volatile opinions about what constitutes “viable life,” but I cannot terminate my own life. Whom do I belong to that someone else’s feelings, opinions, and perceptions are more important than my own as far as the continuance or termination of my life is concerned? I can make all manner of so-called horrible life errors, and society tells me that they are all my responsibility. That is the cost, I’m told, of being an adult. I can smoke. I can over-indulge in alcohol. I unhealthful dietary choices. I can engage in unprotected sex with many, many high-risk partners. Once I’m a legal adult, I can refuse to continue my education or get a job. I can become homeless, suffer the sexual and other physical depredations of others, and die slowly and torturously. All these things, though nearly everyone agrees they’re unwise choices–mistakes, I’m free to do. Why? Because I’m a legal adult and I am responsible for my own life, terribly “mistakes” and all. The regrets of others who’ve pursued, or been on these paths, never justify another forcing me to act “wisely.”

    Yet I cannot end my own life. Why do the suicidal deserve special protections, while the vast majority of society’s derelict do not? Just about everyone who matters–friends, family, politicians, doctors, lawyers, judges, police…–tells the societally lost they made mistakes and must now pay for them. Many of them will die painfully, abandoned, and that’s just life. But I cannot end my own life, so you seem to argue, Stacy, for my own “good”? How is that reasoning at all consistent with our culture’s principles of personal autonomy and responsibility?

    Speaking, too, as a licensed physician, even when I am confident a patient would benefit from additional treatment, I cannot force her or him to accept treatment. Even when the prognosis with treatment is statistically “good,” I can only present patients data–survival rates by years from diagnosis, side effects from treatment… Even if death is imminent without treatment, I cannot impose my will on a (non-minor) patient. So I do not believe the justification mental health gives, as you have here, Stacy, that acting against patients’ wills is justified based on the clinician’s superior knowledge of the disease state, or on the patient’s lack of clear thinking, or on the regret others who’ve attempted an act but failed at it later express over having attempted at all. At the root of the unique treatment modalities for mental health, in particular suicidal ideation, is an unjustifiable belief–not scientific fact–that life is always better than death. Other scholars in philosophy and medicine have written broadly on why this viewpoint is fallacious and never objective. Just as several European countries have finally concluded that life value can only be determined by a person living life, the rest of the world will eventually follow. The modern mental health therapeutic belief system is wholly untenable since it relies, like religion, on others believing the same principles as clinicians and mental health policy lobbyists–all who have a clear stake in the game.

    Lastly, on a practical note, study after study links quality of social life to depression risk. We’re all advised to have healthy and sufficient connections with others we care about and who care about us. But, who doesn’t want quality social relationships? A mentor of mine from my residency commented about the health protection of friendships that what counselors usually fail to acknowledge is that every relationship requires two people. There are very many reasons outside an individual’s control for her potential isolation. Clinical psychology fails to address how persistent these may be despite therapy, drugs, or other interventions. You can only hope to change an individual, not the others she must interact with. So the clinicians who are adamantly against the right of the patient to choose death, will they commit to being with each patient throughout the week, the day, the night, when loneliness sets in and these people feel abandoned and desperate? Can the clinicians guarantee that whatever treatment-du-jour will overcome the early-life formative experiences we know literally mold neurology so that these patients feel radically different, more inclined to stay alive? Will clinicians guarantee patients’ communities will put aside racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, ageism, classism, scathing prejudice based on body habitus, or any of the other myriad prejudices that isolate over a lifetime? Or will clinicians be there, day after day, to provide the intimacy of a hug, holding those who need frequent reassurance? Or can clinicians guarantee a more equitable or hospitable world in general–especially regarding the sometimes monstrously callous or patently malignant mental health system itself? I think not. So, if clinicians cannot guarantee sufficient quality of life we understand is so crucial to “mental health,” neither should they be entitled to condemn the humans they cannot help to lives patients actually living those lives find to be hellish isolation and hopelessness simply because of clinicians’ assessments of their own lives, life in general, or even other patients’ lives.

    The debate over the right to end our own lives is not a matter of medicine or so-called mental health. We already know this since every day patients whose imminent deaths could be forestalled by medical intervention are permitted to reject medical care, and insurance companies are entitled, based on finances, to reject necessary procedures the medical literature tells us are likely to extend patients’ lives significantly. The debate over the right to end our own lives is shockingly rooted in biased value systems–“shockingly” because other people in this arena uniquely get to command otherwise legal adults not to act on our own bodies. To me, there is no greater a contradiction to the concept of personal freedom than this.

    • Mom says:

      Thank you so much for this. I would have loved to see a response from Stacey, but clearly, your logic and reasoning is far too sound for the canned “but what if it gets better?” argument.

  134. Miranda says:

    In my opinion, that’s a personal decision and no one should stop them because you don’t know how much pain we have, it’s better just to disappear and stop suffering, if you stop them, they’ll go back home and still feel like nothing,

  135. Yuuki T says:

    No, I don’t.
    Obviously, suicide can be considered a selfish action – the try at death may physically hurt others, stop traffic, pull public resources, basically inconvenience people in a very literal, tangible sense. And that’s not even counting the emotional scars that may be left.

    Nonetheless, though, I actually think it’s more selfish to deny someone the right to exit.
    Nobody signs up for this life of their own volition, and there is only so much someone can do to change the circumstances of the world around them. The systems are set, the ships out of harbor, and trying to rock the boat usually just throws you overboard. Everyone I know lives with nervous laughter and downward cast eyes: they’re poor, their dreams, goals, and ambitions will never come to fruition, they have no sway in the world, except over the children we all know they can’t really provide for. They work unfulfilling, dead-end jobs, working paycheck to paycheck, smothered by bills and rent, never having anything for themselves that doesn’t come from charity or that didn’t fall off the back of a truck.

    None of them want to kill themselves, at least none have expressed it, but if they did I wouldn’t dare stop them.
    Life really isn’t glamorous, not for most of us, and too often do people toil for no benefit of their own. If they decide that they’re sick of all this, that’s okay.

  136. John Doe says:

    I tried and failed. I live with chronic pain. I’m tired all the time. It takes everything I have just to get throug the day. I can’t work. I can’t do any of the things I used to enjoy. The last thing I want to do every day is get out of bed. Disability keeps denying me. I can’t afford Dr.s to find out why I’m like this. I know I’m dying. I can feel it. It’s just taking a long time. Meanwhile I suffer. I am frustrated to death every time I have to get my pain medication filled because pharmacists hate pain patients for some unknown reason. And do their best to stall filling them and I have to go without for a day or two while they pretend they don’t know that some months have 31 days. I have nothing to look forward to. I’ve lost just about everything. Every move hurts, and any task that requires effort will cost me a day or two in bed. Then to ad insult to injury I acquired Peyronie’s disease. I have come to understand some reasons why my first attempt failed. Gastroparisis being one of them.

    I was punished for trying. They locked me up and on top of that refused to treat my pain. Wouldn’t even call the pain clinic. Their excuse was valid for the first day but not the second, or the third, or the remaining. So not only did I have all the pain I live with, I had to suffer the withdrawals. They wouldn’t treat my withdrawal except with anti anxiety mess. I don’t have anxiety. Then they kept kicking me out of my bed and room and locking the door for hours several times a day. Not a seat with a cusion in the entire place. Nothing to do or read. It was torture. I certainly did want to kill myself while I was in there and that kept me in there longer. I finally realized I had to start lying to get out.

    I was certain my first effort would work. But it didn’t. My gun isn’t big enough to convince anyone it would do the job. And I certainly don’t want to make things worse. Especially if I cripple myself to the point that I can’t finish it. I don’t want to throw myself in front of a train, but if it comes to it.. I want to go peacefully. The only thing I hated about my first attempt was that is was a secret. And I was alone. And it took a long time before I fell asleep. And I don’t ever want to wake up again like that again. I was promised from my reasearch that even if I woke up, my kidneys would be gone for sure, but no such luck. Liver survived too. If I could provoke my undefined illness to kill me I would. Then it’s not a suicide.

    So this is why rational suicide should be legal. I shouldn’t have to throw myself in front of a train. I don’t want to do that to the guy operating the train. It would be wrong to throw myself in front of a car or truck. They might react and crash and it would be a horrible thing to do to a person emotionally. I live a life of pain and misery. I would like to go out peacefully. I shouldn’t have to starve myself or deny myself water in hopes of injury. IF YOUR NOT GOING TO HELP ME LIVE THEN LET ME DIE!!! Damn hypocrites.

  137. maria says:

    I’m ready to die. “Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem”, my ass. I fucking wish my depression was a temporary problem. It’s been 10 years. Medications haven’t worked, therapy hasn’t worked, nothing’s worked. I’m miserable and I don’t want to live. The only thing holding me back is the knowledge that my parents and little brother would be a wreck.

  138. Anonymous says:

    No people should be able to choose.

  139. mike says:

    With regard to “Do Not Give Up!” and “Do Not Give In”….

    I think the response to such statements is at the heart of a number of comments here – if it’s so important to not give up on life, then the person making such a claim should “provide the energy” and effort to the person who should not give up (i.e., the person considering suicide). I think many people who are on the brink of such a decision are out of the energy required to put forth the effort to “save themselves”. That’s the point! They are looking for help. And help is NOT telling them to somehow, in some manner, try to help themselves by doing something.

    When I’ve approached counselors in the past, I’ve approached them from the point of view of seeking help. If a counselor merely tells me what I need to do to, in effect, “pull myself up by my bootstraps” or to “snap out of it”, I get turned off and more depressed right away. Even IF depression and suicide ideation MIGHT be considered, to some extent, in the same category as addiction (I personally think there ARE overlaps between them) and that, as with addicts, the depressed or suicidal person must initiate help by taking the first step toward recovery (most counselors agree that an addict can’t really be helped in the long term until they admit to themselves they are addicted), I think initiating contact and discussing feelings with a counselor IS THE FIRST STEP. They have taken it. There, done!! So, to demand that the depressed person take even MORE steps by themselves (“Okay, you’ve got to do this and this and this to start feeling better”) isn’t helpful at all! It’s likely that the person dealing with these feelings and issues was barely able to bring themselves to a counselor and ask for help. So help them! And NOT by immediately telling them how they can or need to help themselves. They can’t! That’s why they’re seeking help from a counselor, get it??

    What we probably need is for someone to not only suggest solutions, but to basically enact the solutions, WITH the consent of the person seeking help, of course. Yes, to do the work for them (at least, initially)!! This is NOT out of laziness or from someone trying to take advantage of the system. This is from the point of view of someone doing the best they can, and that all of their energy went into asking for help! Yes, this is more expensive than someone doing something on their own, both in money and emotional effort. Yes, this is more individualized than a “one size fits all” solution of “go read this book, go research these topics, go take these special organic vitamins and chart your own progress toward a solution”. Tough!! If counselors don’t want to be seen as hypocrites in their actions, this is what they, and society in general, need to do.

  140. chris says:

    Im Really Sorry to hear that…I wish i had the right answer to tell you…Im Sure you are a Great mother that your boys Love,and your shifty ass husband is at a loss for leaving you…Please stay around for your sons and friends,I Know it would Ruin them if you were gone!Im sorry i dont have better words for you.Stay safe Please.

    • mary h says:

      I totally agree. My husband hasn’t eaten a thing in 10 days. He has no known illness. He lost a tremendous amount of weight in the last 6 months from casting off food. Says he wants to die at home. Die from what? His wife and 4 adult children want to know what is wrong. Could it be depression, cancer, thyroidism, whatever. I feel like I’m helping him. I’ve offered him absolutley every food he loves. I feel so inadequate. He just drinks water. I’m afraid to look at him, it’s scarey. I feel so sorry for my children.

  141. Deborah says:

    Yes, my life is tragic and continues to be every day. After my husband of 36 years walked out of our marriage dumping me and our 2 sons in Bellingham WA, where we hated the constant rains and gloom and couldn’t wait to get out of there, I thought my life and theirs would be better and happier.

    But that was 3 years ago, and although I am divorced from my husband, my life is so miserable. After he left me, only 4 months later and still reeling from the event of abandonment and trying to cope with how this event happened to me. my brother in NY called me on January 20th at 8:30 pm telling me to sit down, because he had “something stunning” to tell me.
    My brother then told me while he was cleaning out our father, Abe’s apartment in NY since he had severe dementia and could no longer live alone, he stumbled on a metal box with a lock on it. When he opened the box…. he found my European Adoption Documents inside. Wow, at age 57 years old to find out I had been adopted hurt me greatly, especially since I called all the relatives and they told me they always knew I had been adopted in Europe.
    I found out my birth mother was from Strasbourg, France born in 1921 a Jew,and I was put up for adoption in Baumholder, Germany where my birth mother was a medical secretary. There was no father listed on either the birth certificate nor adoption documents. My birth name was Darlene Barbara Levy, but my adoptive parents, Jewish Chaplain Abe and Norma adopted me at 4 months old when the adoption was finalized and then changed my birth name to Deborah Susan.
    After leaving WA state and finding a first cousin in CA my sons and I thought our lives would then be happier. But a few months later my left eye retina detached, had surgery and then 33 days later my left eye detached again, leaving me legally blind now in that eye with limited vision.
    I hate my life and find it easier to plan my death rather that live. Finding out my birth mother told the family that she did give birth to a baby girl in Germany in 1957 but that baby (ME) had died of a disease was another stab in my heart. Feeling like my heart was broken when my husband left me, then finding out about my adoption feels like my soul had a missing pieces to it not knowing who I am, and my spirit that I once had, the ability to laugh and find joy is gone.

  142. chris says:

    Im 32 and Im tired of being depressed and physically ill for Years,just the last 7 years ive been bedridden,had depression since 15,i have chrohns disease,chronic prostatitis,Allodynia,IBD,IBS,nauseated all day,anxiety all day,irritability in my bladder and penis,throbbing prostate,turrets,i cant shit or piss right because of my prostate sigh etc etc. Im so tired of the same thing EVERYDAY,im Afraid to go to sleep knowing im going to wake up with the same AWEFULL feelings EVERYDAY!!!!No one should be scared to wake up everyday!!!!!!!And because i dont feel well i stopped hanging out with people because i Dont Want To Share My Misery With Others! Why is that SOO hard for people to understand???But for the few people that i have to see on a daily basis,ie family members,i feel AWEFULL because i dont feel well and am always apologizing for not being able to go out with them to eat or shopping whatever,or if im rely hurting extra some days and someone comes over and i blow up on them cause IM NOT WELL!!And that why i stay away from Everyone,so then i feel Awefull and Apologize over and over saying”im sorry im angry but im hurting all over!”Im tired of hurting my loved ones because of the way i am.So if can’t work to make money and help my family,cant have a relationship and have children,cant go out and have fun or something simple like going out to eat because of the nausea,whats the point of life if i can’t do these simple normal things!!Im sorry but if you cant so these things in this life like work,make money,and have a relationship and have children then there is No point of life.

    • Sophie says:

      You have loved ones. I don’t! Try feeling the way you do all of your life never having a family, or any one to help on your worst day.

  143. Anonymous says:

    I am that person

  144. Christina Stewart says:

    I knew a man who was 70 years old who lived down the way from me. He has no TV, no radio, no computer or anything else to do. His family abandoned him 7 years ago. He has kidney failure, severe heart disease, arthritis and severe, life threatening dental problems. He lives on $1,000 a month. He has to pay taxi drivers to do everything for him. He has not seen a doctor in 5 years. He doesn’t have any copay money. He wants to die. No friends or family will see him.

  145. Lee says:

    I think people who have had life long mental health issues should be able to choose to die. It is truly a life of suffering and is not fair to that person to suffer. Yes, they may have good days but the bad days outweigh those good days after 40 yrs of suffering. It is like being on a seesaw. Belgium is very forward thinking on this topic. There is no cure for depression and until there is,which is highly unlikely as pharmaceutical companies make billions on depression, anxiety drugs and other drugs, people should be able to choose the right to die with dignity.

  146. Joseph says:

    I definitely feel like dying everyday. An accumulation of my family falling apart and betraying one another, my mom being an addict and my dad not wanting to talk to me, my vision has faded since I was 15, my goals in life aren’t clear anymore and I yet to have accomplished anything more than high school graduation which I was lawfully forced anyways. My gf won’t let me see my daughter if we aren’t together so I’m forced to be unhappy with her to have some happiness of my daughter in my life. I absolutely would love to stress to the people out there who shame on these kind of feelings that they just don’t know how it is. Feelings of disparity and loneliness and absolute self worthlessness can take a toll. If you don’t have anyone in your life offering a smile or offering to sit with you or to help you in any way it really becomes lonely. My childhood was filled with abuse, watching my mom do drugs while dad was at work, her cheating on my father, her beating my brothers and I and her constantly telling us she didn’t want us and wished we weren’t born. I have no joyful memories when I was younger or even for my whole life for that matter. Thinking about the past really hurts, which hurts the present psyche, which dwindles my ability to have any sort of hope that the future is going to be a jackpot. I used to be religious until I realized I was merely mumbling unheard wishes and pipe dreams in my own mind (people know as ‘praying’). Of course these wishes or silent whispers were never to alter my hopes or expectations. Im a father and if I had the almighty ability as old school idiots think then I would with all of my power never let my children suffer a day of their life. Killing wouldn’t be a reality. And a (the) devil that was against me sure as hell wouldn’t be creeping around my child’s realm to potentially destroy the purity I established. I would smite the Devil like an ant. But this being people created called god allegedly has this power YET chooses to let us fall into the pitfall of free will and unchangeable disaster. Perhaps a reason why I feel so despaired is when I realized the god I used to believe in wasn’t even helping me REGARDLESS of the power he is said to possess. It’s even more depressing to realize that people made this concept up to make people like me have hope.

    Should a human being have the right to keep another human being on this planet just because they have luckily made it through life without such traumatic and despairing situations? That’s like a man living in an island (the island representing life) of bounty telling a human living in an island of dust that life is amazing and to cheer up. While the man on the bountiful island will never experience or know why the dust island man is so hopeless and defeated, it makes the hopelessness that much worse to know that it’s just an unfair deal of the cards. Some people win some people don’t. Some are happy because the dominoes fell correctly for them. Some people no matter how positive their aspirations or their expectations life can be total disaster. So next time you tell someone don’t die things will be better maybe you should ask yourself what are you doing to better that persons situation personally and emotionally before flaunting your positivity due to a sheltered and better life, by luck.

  147. Anon says:

    I have been down the road of suicidal thoughts. I have severe anxiety, and panic attacks. I also do not handle stress very well. I had a very rough go at life starting from 12 years old, up until now. My teenage years were the worst of it, and i ended up dropping out of school. I have been with my wife for 8 years. She knows i have issues, and sometimes does not understand at all. I have told her about my prior suicidal thoughts, and she gets angry. She does not get how i could want to die. We have a 3 year old now. I try to maintain a positive way to think Because of my toddler. I love my daughter more than life itself, and it keeps me wanting to fight, and live. Some days are better than others. All i can do is keep on trying and fighting every day. I also have my mother and sister to keep me positive. I think that if you have that close circle of people in your life, it makes each day a little easier to get through. I wake up every day, and just try…. Thats all i can do for myself.. Just try…if i feel bad, and have those feelings, i just think about my child, and the woman who has stuck around 8 wonderful years.. I hope life can get better for others, and hope it continues to get better for me.

  148. Paul says:

    I am warming to the idea of voluntary euthanasia. Clinical depression is a very bad thing, and it often remains with you for a very long time. At times one utterly despairs of life and death seems like it would be a release. Personally speaking, chronic illness has severely diminished my enjoyment of life. We have to find ways to escape reality, be it enlightenment, fiction, fantasy, sex, drugs or alcohol.

  149. Brent F. says:

    “Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem”. Nothing could be more the opposite. Suicide is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. The problem being that of unlimited conciousness. I already tried to kill myself and succeeded and ended up in an identical life with a more damaged body. From a thermodynamic scientific standpoint there are multiple universes, each with an identical copy of you and identical environments. When you die by any means, even in the absence of suicide, you end up continuing to live in a universe that supports a survival scenario. So you decide to hang yourself with a rope. Then the rope breaks…or your parents walk in and get you help…that’s what *you* experience. Little did you know there is that original universe with a set of your parents mourning your death and planning for a funeral. So you’ve accomplished *nothing*, your neck aches and you still have 13 billion years or more of life to get through. Suicide only was the temporary solution. From the viewpoint of the self (schroedinger’s cat) the effect isn’t permanent and you still have to serve your sentence. You cannot fool thermodynamics/god/mother nature (depending on what you believe in). The enemy knows the system.

    Bottom line is, don’t waste time trying to discover the first digit of pi. It’s the number three any way you slice it. Suicide is a waste of time because it has no lasting effects. Just stay alive. Yes, you can put 1+1 into a calculator then clear it over and over but the answer is always 2.

    You will always be alive for ever and ever, no technology, person, weapon, ritual,or event can take that away from you.

  150. J W says:

    I believe in bodily autonomy. My life is mine, and mine alone. There are countless people out there — myself included — that have spent DECADES trying to recover, and things have actually gotten worse as time goes on. Much worse. I’ve tried everything under the sun. Yoga, fitness, meditation, self-care, spirituality, talk therapy, CBT, DBT, EMDR, Chinese medicine/acupuncture, supplements, body work, 8 different antidepressant medications (all of which made me PROFOUNDLY worse), diet/lifestyle modifications, self-help books, ketamine infusions, psychics (hey, we get desperate), bioidentical hormonal therapy, weekly IV nutrient infusions, ayahusaca ceremonies in Peru, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. I’ve even participated in clinical research. About the only thing I haven’t tried is ECT and I refused it because for those with atypical depression like me, the efficacy is greatly reduced – the risk of further cognitive impairment and even lower functioning was not worth it to me for such low probability of it helping. TMS isn’t covered by insurance so that’s not an option. To say that most people get better is to completely ignore the people out there who have treatment-resistant depression. I personally know 6 other people with TRS – coincidentally, they’re all in my family. It’s worth noting that I never believed my depression to be treatment resistant until the last couple of years when reality finally set in.

    When it comes to suicide, I’ve been thinking of that since I was a child. I’m 40 now. I’ll admit – my suicidal ideation in prior years was irrational. Now, it’s absurdly rational. No one has the right to determine on my behalf that I should suffer interminably for no good reason unless they are prepared to offer a treatment THAT WORKS. Oh, and it should also cure my chronic and degenerative pain and fatigue as well, because those are becoming unbearable.

    If I lived in Belgium, the Netherlands, or Switzerland, I’d qualify for voluntary euthanasia (all three countries offer it for cases of severely mentally ill people who have a lengthy medical dossier to prove they’ve exhausted all of their options). It’s comforting to know that there ARE societies out there with compassion and mercy, not to mention a level of emotional intelligence to understand that suicide isn’t going to go away just because we don’t like it. Society will have to keep cleaning up broken bodies and guts from sidewalks, they’ll have to keep fishing bloated bodies out of rivers, they’ll have to keep cleaning up brains and skull fragments from walls until they realize that this is an issue that requires a different way of thinking besides “it gets better!”, and one which doesn’t involve forcing someone to suffer simply to appease deeply imbedded fears about death and reinforce trite sentimentalities about life. The decision to self-euthanize CAN be born in a rational mind. That’s not to say that all suicides are rational and that prevention should be non-existent, but it’s atrocious that people with lifelong illnesses, both physical and mental, don’t have autonomy over their own lives and are forced to make such a big decision alone in the dark about when they’ve had enough, which only causes unnecessary suffering for their families if and when it happens.

    It’s worth noting that in those three countries that offer voluntary euthanasia, many people that receive the green light actually decide not to go through with it, and report that knowing they have the option to end their suffering peacefully and reliably brought them comfort.

  151. m.m. says:

    now it is clear how much endless sufferings in this life and for the initiator of the question is there any way to help those who find it necessary to terminate their lives? if so please if you can show them how to die easy , you asked them and then you had the answers , please reverse it just be asked and give the answers -thank you

  152. Rolly says:

    I hurt so bad. The darkness and evil is always looming. I have burdened my wife with my psychological disorders for nearly 25 years only to now burden my 12 year old daughter as well. My meds failed me last weekend and I exploded into rage. I’m hurting the one’s I love so dearly. I’d rather be dead than locked up again. I’m loosing a battle with my faith as a devout Catholic. I don’t believe God has time for me anymore or if He ever did for that matter. I want it to end! If it weren’t for my daughter it would be easy. I just can’t break her heart by ending my life. As for my wife, I trust without me she could and should remarry and hopefully have a happier life. A monster has controlled me for my entire life and I can’t take much more. There’s only one way to quiet the monster, rage, and anger.

    • pAT says:

      I can’t say i know your pain but i’m struggling with heroin addiction and its brought me to my breaking point and I still see no way out, the anger is the worst part, angry for being alive, upset at yourself because how society has structured you to live, I’m not sure if there are any answers to such a problem but there’s a beauty in self awareness, and its incredible how life can take you to the highest point and bring you back down to the depths of existence in no time at all…

    • Joseph says:

      I totally feel that way as well… I feel like I want to be the great good man people always try to represent. But the feelings my brain produce aren’t in my control. I look around and see people so happy and smiling and I utterly wish I could have that in my brain. I wish I was wired that way. I wish I could enjoy small things in life and get surrounded by the positive noise to the extent I forget I’m alive and just start living. But I realize I’m alive and suffering everyday. My fiancé wants to help but it makes her sad to see me this way. It makes it so much worse that the people I love are being affected by the way I am even with my constantly not wanting to be this way. I wish there was a pill we could take that would solve everything or maybe a solace or god that actually affected me without me having to essentially dig in for the positivity myself.

    • Pin Ann Coe says:

      If you feel you are inflicting so much difficulty on your family, then move to a small apartment nearby and make sure they know it is out of love you are doing it. Maybe it will take off some of the emotional pressure from you. Do everything else in any case, before making suicide appear to be an option to your daughter. She will face seemingly insurmountable challenges in this increasingly hostile world and I can tell you are a loving parent. Don’t let her think that suicide will ever be an option for her in those rough times. This alone is why you must endure. Find another way.

    • Amy LifeStar says:

      DO NOT GIVE UP and DO NOT GIVE IN!

      “Perseverance is the KEY;” and being “Creative and Innovative” to Approach the Nature of the CORE ISSUES you are and have been undergoing!

      Also, Medications per se: and in general have Too Many Unhealthy and Unwanted Side effects or Harmful effects! So, perhaps, right now, it might be good and wise to use a MUCH MORE “NATURAL and Authentic Health and Healing Approaches” for whatever and however you have been Tormented by!

      It is Worth to consider and Explore NEW and Uplifting Approaches and Reality and a New Horizon!

  153. m.m.mokhtar says:

    i think you are too young to get bored , you still have too much time , try life again

  154. Beth says:

    Just because a mental illness is diagnosable doesn’t mean it magically gets treated because that’s expensive and nobody cares.

  155. Travis says:

    Because I make myself alone, I am afraid of disappointing people but I do anyway. I just want to die. Why do you care what some fat, wimpy American guy is tired of his well fed life and wants to stop? I don’t add anything to the world except selfishness, pettiness, lies, and pain.

  156. Peter says:

    I disagree. I think it an individual choice. It is also highly subjective. I have diabetes and hypertension and my life expectancy is likely to be less than 15 years. A crippling stroke is likely. Much better in my opinion to end my life now especially as I derive no pleasure from it whatsoever.

  157. Anon says:

    I have a chronic disease. It doesn’t kill me, it doesn’t totally disable me.

    But the confrontations and the disapproval by society is killing me slowly by embracing me with huge amount of concerns, anxiety and depression.

    I cannot see myself happy anytime in this life, I pretend to be happy sometimes and I never expressed my desire to die.

    I can’t fall asleep not playing with my fantasy killing myself. My desire to die has lasted long and are carefully thought thru.

    Probably I’d swallow my pain to ease life of happy ignorant people who loves the society that killed my soul.

    The only cowards are the ones who cannot accept the choices other makes to kill themselves.

  158. Anonymous says:

    There are times when people around you say that they don’t understand you. On top of the personal misery you are experiencing. The final compelling remark becomes they can’t help you. This sums it up and thete is no reason to remain.

  159. Anonymous says:

    Thanks, finally an article that makes some sense.. I want to end it myself and everything i read about it is full of bull!
    Life is a cycle of hell. They created a supposedly hell to reduce the pain that is actually happening down here. Everything is so pointless providing this is a monetary system, nothing is real! 62 people of this planet own the wealth of 3.5 billion people on the planet – what’s that saying! If someone wants to die let them go, people are clueless fucking zombies!

  160. Jacob says:

    If you want to die, you are mentally ill. Humane nature does not dictate wanting to die. However, human nature changes based on the environment you are placed in. So, if the environment you are placed in makes you want to die, then that environment has warped your view of society and has tarnished your hopes. Suppose you were placed into that environment from the very start of your life. How would you differentiate from good and bad? You would have no way of knowing what a “normal” life should be like. You would only know the “bad.” Perhaps you experienced someone else’s “happy” life, and you knew right then and there just how awful you had it. Would you have only known that your life was bad once you had something to compare it to, or would you have been content with your life? Let’s examine the life of any insect, they have instinct. They make their decisions based on surviving. They don’t care about the quality of their life, and their only meaning is to make babies, eat food, and die. Let’s go back to humans now, no one should want to kill themselves. No one should want to end their lives because we are here merely to populate the earth. Unfortunately we are not insects, and we have many more emotions than being horny. Still, you should not find yourself wanting to die. I’ll admit, I do not find life worth living. I think, “What’s the point of going on if I’m going to die one day anyways.” There are a couple of other problems, but for the sake of the comment, I’ll focus on this one. I feel all the hopes that I have will never actually happen. I’m losing hope. If you feel you have no hope, but you find yourself in counseling by your own regard, doesn’t that mean you have some ounce of hope in you? If you make the trek to go to the counselors office every week/day/month doesn’t that mean some part of you wants to live? I find myself, more often than not, only wishing that I would die. Killing myself seems strange, but I most definitely wish a truck would plow through my window and leave my entrails strewn along the walls. So far that hasn’t exactly panned out for me. I know that I have a problem. However I don’t find myself wishing to do anything about it. Is suicide bad? If someone is “keeping” you alive or “forcing” you to stay alive, and you do it, are you really being oppressed by someone, or are you making the conscious decision to not end your life any chance you get? I don’t think anyone truly wants to kill themselves. (There may be someone out there) I haven’t heard of anyone who is having such a hard time killing themselves that they feel they are being kept alive by someone against their will. If you wake up in the morning and aren’t instantly trying to hang yourself, then you aren’t truly suicidal. You still have hope, a very small amount of hope, but hope nonetheless. Is keeping someone alive a crime? No because somewhere deep deep deep down they don’t want to die either. The instinctual part of their brain is screaming at them to stay alive as long as possible to make a new human. If you truly aren’t dissatisfied with your life, and are actually content, and you still find yourself wanting to die, then sure, kill yourself. However, if you are depressed in any way and you find yourself wanting to die, then yes, you are mentally unstable. You have unclear judgement, and someone should help you.

    • Anonymous says:

      Not so long ago homosexuality was also considered an illness. So we will get there, hopefully. I really don’t understand what’s the big deal with this. We are going to die anyway, and nobody chose to be here. We were just brought to the world. I started to feel like I wanted to be dead when I was 17. I’m almost 39. “Oh, it will go away”. When? Do I have to go 20 more years of misery? I don’t have a family, nor I want one, of course. Every time I see someone with a kid I feel sorry for them. It makes me realize that I live life differently. Any person who thinks like me, or has felt like me, couldn’t bring a life into this world. Also, we tend to think this is like in the movies. Where you try to do something and in 90 minutes, things change. Guess what, they don’t. I don’t want more jobs that I hate, I’m sick of the traffic, of uneducated and loud people, of political bullshit, of the fucking money, I don’t want to chase jobs I hate to pay the rent, etc. And I might be the minority here. I’ve traveled to over 30 countries, I live in a really nice place, I drive a nice car and my life is pretty much solved financially. Still, i can’t stand life. I don’t think it’s worth the effort. We just assume that we have to like this. Well, some of us, don’t.

      When somebody is with an abusive husband, we don’t tell them, it’s not that bad, it’ll get better. Just hang on. Maybe next month he’s gonna give you some love. Then, he will make you miserable for another two years. Or when someone can’t stand a job, we never tell them to stay there, right? But with life… ding! There something called religion. So we can’t accept it. I think it should be encouraged and facilitated.

      It’s not that we don’t want to die. We don’t have the balls. And of course my family is going to be devastated. I know that for a fact. I’m not delusional. But… do I have to be miserable because of them? for life?

    • Aiah Z says:

      Jacob, you’ve presented here a running catalog of your opinions. Others can feel radically differently, just as they can about many other aspects of life. You aren’t the judge of “mentally unstable” for anyone other than yourself. Be satisfied deciding on whether you yourself feel justified in concluding you want to live or not. Telling someone else she’s unstable and cannot make decisions for herself isn’t going to convince anyone else to live her life the way you believe she should.

  161. m.m.mokhtar says:

    solid and true statement

  162. m.m.mokhtar says:

    and in addition why do others want you to live in torture and no dignity life ? either they help you or leave you alone

  163. m.m.mokhtar says:

    the very interesting point you said death is pain , how did you find that ? and what kind of pain is it? thanks

  164. Anonymous says:

    many of the people, Myself included, did talk to counselors, suicide prevention, so called family and friends, read books etc…but the pain didnt stop, the hurt doesnt vanish, the temporary thought as you claim, isnt at all temporary. Most have years of the above solutions and they all failed with one thing left… i know some day in my near future my suicide will be my solution.

    • m.m.mokhtar says:

      I think you do not need to consult any body because you are the best one to judge yourself , for a word of truth life is becoming really boring

    • nolove says:

      I feel like I’m in the same mindset as you. But for me I’m not sure what’s going to happen moment to moment.

    • James R Gorsh says:

      I whole heartedly understand.

    • Kayla says:

      I can’t remember a time not being severely depressed and I’m 30. To me it’s more of just being to exhausted to figure it all out anymore. You can reach out to me if you want to chat though. And not in a save you kind of way but more in a “this is is all bullshit let’s compare life notes” kind of way

    • David W says:

      I couldn’t agree more. Some people’s life is nothing but pain, disappointment, more pain and then a little extra pain on the side. Dosent matter what tyou of pain it is whether mental or physical or both.

      For some, true happyness or true nothingness will only come at death. I’d be more than happy with either ending..

  165. Kimberly says:

    The right to die is personal and should be respected.

  166. Anonymous says:

    I’m 60. Alone. No money in savings and nothing for retirement. I am in a job I hate doing part time work. Who is going to take care of me when I get sick and can no longer work? A state run nursing home. Guess what I do for a living! I work as a CNA. I know the lack of staff.

  167. Lucy says:

    Being one that would embrace death with open arms if it was possible quickly and painlessly, being one that “survived” a suicide attempt… I will always, and have always, been a strong advocate of individual choice, it’s no one else’s right to deny another the right to die, under any circumstance, I do not care how subjectively poor a reason you may think it is, nobody is required to remain alive simply because you think they should… so yes, I am 100% in favor of assisted suicide, no matter the reason.

  168. Jason says:

    Four years ,five suicide attempts ,two counselors and im still not better im 13 now

    • Tara Brannelly, MD says:

      I’m assuming you have chronic depression. You feel that the precipitants to your state are non-existent or inadequate, and you might be right. You need to see a competent, compassionate psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrist who hopefully will have enough skill and experience to help you. He or she needs to be well trained in “biological” treatments for depression as well as psychological ones. Undoubtedly, you have been on anti-depressants. If you have tried four with no effect, it’s time to move on to TMS (trans magnetic stimulation) which has a good track record. The other option is ECT (electroconvulsive therapy)-which is by far the most effective treatment for depression. It has been around since 1930, and in the old days, treatment was barbaric. It has been re-worked over the last 15 years such that memory loss and other complications are minimal.

      Ketamine infusions are currently somewhat popular, but I don’t think they work so well for major depression. They may work better for bi-polar depression.

      Good luck and take care.

      BTW: what was done to the patient in, “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest,” was NOT ECT. It was a procedure used in the 1930’s and 40’s to remove sections of the patient’s frontal lobes. It was usually done on schizophrenics, but. It always Ieft the patient largely unresponsive and dull. It is illegal now and has been for some decades.

      President Kennedy’s elder sister Rose received the treatment because she was considered to be “rambunctious.” It is not clear what illness, if any, she had.

  169. Rethink says:

    Stacy, I just stumbled upon this again, while contemplating this possibility more and more, and I couldn’t disagree more with the “evidence” supporting this article.
    Perhaps the most valid point here would be a statistic which states that 90% of people who attempt suicide don’t die that way….. I went and clicked on the link at it gives an error. Presupposing this to be correct, is it fair to deny even that 1 out of 10? Also, is it not possible that if some other health condition didn’t come up first, they wouldn’t eventually choose this method of death?
    Second, the circular logic that supports the argument that 90% of people who commit suicide have some sort of mental health issue just seems ridiculously based upon self-serving assumptions, and highly questionable. Can you deny that there IS A SELFISH BENEFIT to the mental health industry to keep someone alive that might not want to be? It could even be argued that this is a form of torture, and there are very well written articles that make this case! I clicked on the link to find NO OBJECTIVE evidence of this!!!! I actually have a degree in Mathematics, and I have seen how easy it is to skew numbers and only include evidence that supports finding in research.
    Is it really beyond the realms of possibility that the psychiatric/psychological industry is perpetuating a myth that many in the population would love to support in order to make money at the expense of someone else’s suffering?
    There are so many ways to ask questions and to create bias in these “studies” that you have to question at least some of the objectivity of them.
    I recently read a list of fallacies, and one I thought was quite revealing was the Psycologist’s Fallacy seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy
    You can also look up regression fallacy, or even a little bit of Retrospective Determinism. Have these studies ever been cross-examined, and challenged? I clicked on that second link and they have a convenient disclaimer that this research is a “work in progress” which begs how seriously you can take them. Can you legitimately counter the argument that retrospective determinism is a fallacy that is just widely embraced in this research that states so many that commit suicide are “mentally ill”? If mentally ill means imperfect, then everyone in the world is mentally ill, so how many other rights/freedoms are we going to take away?
    I just cannot understand what gives some “expert” the right to impose their beliefs on someone when the basis is so questionable, self-serving (you can’t deny that psychologists make money off of people they call “mentally unstable”), and yet so weak in pure measurement objectivity. I hear this self-sustaining faulty logic all the time, and am baffled at how few actually question it! “If you are considering ending your life, then you are mentally unstable. If you are mentally unstable, then any perspective of yours has to be questioned.” Yet WHO, and by WHAT MEASURE are they deemed “mentally unstable”? By some norm in society’s perspective is in disagreement? As you mention, life is in constant flux, and so are the perspectives of this society! Hence I really think it is a slippery slope calling someone mentally unstable.
    There are times when someone has truly evaluated the pros and cons of living vs dying, and if one has no dependents, should have EVERY RIGHT to terminate this existence. We weren’t asked if we wanted to be here. Sometimes there are financial pressures that weigh on people’s decisions, and they logically don’t want to be a burden on others. There can be LOGIC to this decision, and in my experience, I have seen more logic on the side of those contemplating this gruesome scenario than many in the psychological community that constantly produce self-serving, weakly supported “research”, yet agree in masses because IT BENEFITS THEIR PROFESSION with the research.
    Please, at least acknowledge the potential for bias in this. If there really is measurable evidence that only 10% continue to commit suicide, well, that might be a somewhat valid indicator, but there are even flaws with that. I wish all psychologists and psychiatrists had to have all their work cross-checked with the list of common fallacies, because I think this profession would be MUCH IMPROVED.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Rethink,

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I’m learning, perhaps belatedly, that my participating in this debate does little good, so I will observe the process with curiosity and receptiveness. In the meantime, I want to share with you a couple things. One, this article will probably interest you: Mental Disorder and Suicide: A Faulty Connection, by Saxby Pridmore (2015). I’m linking to a PDF version through ResearchGate; be warned that those articles can disappear at any moment.

      I also want to thank you for letting me know of the faulty link, which I have replaced with the current URL. I alone run this website while working full time as a professor and psychotherapist, so I regrettably don’t have the time to check all the links. I appreciate when people let me know that one is out of date.

      Thanks, and I look forward to reading your further contributions to this debate.

    • Alexander says:

      Rethink —

      A few more thoughts.

      The 1990s and 2000s were glorious decades to be a psychiatrist. It seemed as though each year several new, potentially life-changing medications were brought to market. Options became available to tackle long-standing, treatment-resistant disorders. It did not hurt that big pharma had deep pockets to promote the new offerings. Stigmas were falling, more people were seeking help than ever before, and just about any psychiatrist could brag about patients who, with the right medication and a little time, returned looking more confident and reporting fewer symptoms.

      Today the shine has DIMMED…. The mental health of the nation may have even declined in the past 20 years. This trend is what Thomas Insel, former director of the National Institute of Mental Health, calls one of the “inconvenient truths” of mental illness. Suicide rates per 100,000 people have increased to a 30-year high. Substance abuse, particularly of opiates, has become epidemic. Disability awards for mental disorders have dramatically increased since 1980, and the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs is struggling to keep up with the surge in post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

      The most discouraging assessment came in 2013 from an in-depth analysis by the U.S. Burden of Disease Collaborators. Hundreds of investigators gathered data on 291 diseases and injuries between 1990 and 2010. Combining premature death and disability to calculate the burden of each disease, they found that the toll of mental disorders had grown in the past two decades, even as other serious conditions became more manageable.

    • akaisha says:

      I agree with you from first hand experience I’m 25 and have been miserable my whole life went to the mental ward 4 times and all of those times they did nothing for me except leave me in a room with a bunch of other mentally ill people and ignore us all and come around to pass out medications 2 of the times I was sent their by the police, once by a family friend and once by myself they also lie saying if you admit yourself your free to leave at anytime that is bullshit they kept me there for 2 weeks and offered no help to me at all. they didn’t believe me when I told them I believe I was drugged (my relatives dad dealt drugs and had been sleeping over at our house) I demanded blood and urine to prove drugs were in fact in my body they refused later I got the tests no drugs present but that relative also started acting crazy at the same time as me and soon their dad disappeared after an argument about drugs being found in the bathroom trash can by another family friend after using the bathroom. so does it sound coincidental? I think not but of course they didn’t believe me nor help me they wanted money and used me a guinea pig and fed me medications that drove me nuts I’m better since I stopped using meds from them in fact I had been taking meds prior for about 3-4 weeks because I told a dr I was depressed they didn’t care to ever talk to me just write me a prescription yet never diagnosed me even with a mental illness I’m currently applying for social security because I have a lot of issues but I’m being postponed because I have no diagnosis from a doctor despite being hospitalized and on meds twice in my life, I began seeing a therapist she was a waste of time I stopped going to her and went to a counselor who also wasted my time they try to talk in a calm voice to me but ask me the same questions every time I go ummm hello are you even listening to me at all? I had 4 or 5 appointments with the first and 3 appointments with the second all of which provided me no help, support or comfort when I was being abused by a relative I called and emailed the counselor asking her for help and she didn’t help me I thought they were mandated reporters? oh I get it you cannot talk to me unless I’m at an appointment and you know you can bill my insurance otherwise I’m a waste of her time obviously. she proved it also by calling my relative and asking them to get a hold of me because I had no phone at one point and when I called all she wanted to know was if I was going to be moving back into town and did I know my insurance was being cancelled soon and if I wanted to remain a patient I needed to figure that out. so yes they do not care about us and us being alive all they care about is that they can bill us or our insurance and gain a profit from the pharmaceutical industry to the doctor to the nurses etcetra that’s all they care about is that they need us alive and miserable for the rest of our lives so they can continue to generate a stable income for themselves. one mans trash is another mans treasure well one mans miserable life is a doorway for a successful comfortable life of another who capitalizes of his misery.

    • Peter says:

      I think people classed as having a mental illness are likened to the psychology theory of people having a functional role/being able to function in society. This is a core objective of psychiatrists and specialist counsellors and the thought of not being functional is both abhorrent and considered by them a failure.

      This being the case, similar to other fields where someone has a vested interest in their career or “selling” something (be it a message or item) you do have to take what a qualified professional says with a grain of salt. They wouldn’t have a job if it was as simple as just letting people who want to loll themselves go. It would do them out of a job!

      A lot of people classified as wanting to die because they have a mental illness is more palatable than accepting the reality – and that is that some people SHOULD be allowed to go. If that’s their choice.

      Sorry Stacy mate – what you are selling I am simply not buying.

  170. Abby says:

    I think suicide is okay. No one cares how you “live” your life until the moment you decide you don’t want to live it anymore. Say someone wants to die because life is strenuous and laborious. Constantly empty and doesn’t care to “better themselves”. Then let them leave. Clearly they don’t think being alive is worth anything so why keep them here to suffer? Fuck life in my opinion.

  171. Mike says:

    I don’t believe all suicides can be or should be prevented. Can a person learn to cope with mental pain or stress? Yes. Is that always a positive thing? Consider someone with chronic physical pain. Can they learn to cope? Probably, especially if they have external help such as pain killers. Is that a positive outcome, merely coping with the.pain? Most other people would not object to the person in pain saying “no”.

    • Suizou says:

      Precisely, Mike. Thank you. How long “should” I continue with chronic, debilitating degenerative physical pain on top of lifelong chronic depression? I’m going on my 46th year and have given each one of those years my very best effort. Is there a trophy for most days accumulated? Nope. The medical industry, however, benefits greatly from each day I remain here.

  172. Anonymous says:

    Just as there is the right to live, so there ought to be the right to die. If someone is unhappy with their life and that over the years there was no improvement, then why should one prolong their torment?

  173. Matt Crawley says:

    Death is pain… I’d like to avoid that as long as possible…

  174. joe says:

    I wanted to commit suicide because I don’t have a girlfriend and feel I am not good enough for women I have seizures and irritable bowel syndrome can’t work on disability i can make 800.00 working but hard to find jobs that won’t hire me.I have a friend that wants to line me up with someone which is awesome don’t hurt the ones that do love you

  175. Nina says:

    I simply want to die. Why bother with life it’s boring anyway.

  176. Anonymous says:

    No I am a schizophrenic and have been suffering for 10 years nothing changes my family life is ruined and it is not getting any better. It is easy to be healthy and pass judgement on people and it’s quite a different story to live it and continue living a horror story for rest of ur life…

    • Brittany says:

      I deal with schizophrenia your not alone <33333, i know how you feel it is so hard and tormenting but take heart the Creator overcame the world <333 I am living proof of being alive i almost killed myself many times because of that thing.xoxoxoxo please dont think about killing yourself it is not worth it and I do not want anyone killing themselves. I am here to talk to anyone. heres my email jesuscaresforyou777@yahoo.com

  177. Anonymous says:

    No, not always. Sometimes there is no one to prevent it, and that itself is reason enough to have no reason to live.

  178. Anonymous says:

    No…if someone wants to die let them. It’s a free country and no one has the right to tell them they can’t die!

  179. I get rather sick of this ‘it’s only temporary’ cliche, people who say that have no idea, they are smug and condescending and wish to minimise the reality that there are people whose lives really are ongoing misery.

    I am 63 now, I have had 3 serious suicide episodes, I recall the first major one when I was about 23, I remember thinking I would either die and that would be fine my suffering would end, or I would live and people would acknowledge my pain, offer me friendship and support and things would improve, so either way it was a good idea – how naive I was….nobody gave a damn, the doctors at the hospital virtually ignored me, nurses treated me like a nuisance, they couldn’t get rid of me quick enough.

    A while later I visited a GP, when I told her I had been in ‘ward 6’ for a week after taking an overdose of sleeping pills she was abusive and told me she would never prescribe anything to me again, the few relatives I had were sarcastic and indifferent, I had no friends.

    Anyway I decided to give things another go, found a new job, sadly I was forced to continue to live with my abusive husband because I had a kid and nowhere to go, I even managed to form a separate life from him so limited his ability to abuse me, then I realised he might kill me in my sleep, he would never have dared do anything while I was awake because I would have flattened the little worm, I worked nights so I slept in the day and really believe he might put a hammer through my head.

    Anyway decided to move in with another man, we had had sex together few times, I didn’t want him but he had a house so it was somewhere for me to go and I was prepared to make an effort.

    As soon as I got there I knew he would never be any use but I gave life the best shot I could and made the best of it.

    He was a major passive aggressive and took pleasure in rejecting me and my son, again nowhere to go so had to accept it eventually when my son was 10 I was able to leave, I truly hoped I could finally find a real partner, I lived on a benefit which was virtually impossible so I was still dependent on my ex for money, another suicide effort, this time I had no delusions of anything and had learnt from previous failed attempts and thought I had done a better job.

    I was unconscious alone for a week, when I started to come round I had very frightening hallucinations and I didn’t remember what had happened.

    Crawled to a phone and was taken to hospital, said I must have had an accident because I did not remember, it gradually came back to me, and I am sure the hospital knew but they weren’t interested so I didn’t say anything, again they couldn’t get rid of me quick enough.

    As I had no-one a hospital ‘social worker’ drove me home, she waited outside with the engine running so I could go in and put clothes on and give her the hospital gown back, she left without one word of concern even though I was obviously still under the influence of the drugs I had taken and had other injuries, so I was left ill and alone.

    Yet again I decided to see if I could create a life so I moved and got a new job, hounded out of that for being stupid enough to report sexual harassment, abandoned by everyone, destroyed in court this time I did a double, drugs and hanging, today realised that was 20 years ago, I have not had a happy day in over 30 years, if ever, a good day for me is one where nothing really bad happens.

    I am now dependent on my 2nd husband for my home and income, I hate him but I have developed strategies for limiting his control, he lives in another town but comes here whenever he feels like it, we had a sexless marriage (his choice not mine) but at least he has never tried that.

    Until about 10 years ago I still thought I might find someone but I have not been touched for over 20 years, it is an awful way to live.

    This realisation it was 20 years since my failed hanging, losing my job, savings (scum lawyers stole that) home, yet again I moved and tried again, maybe in time I would find love, friends ….but unsurprisingly that has never happened, I live a marginalised, isolated existence.

    At 63 I am still working but have nothing, as a non-citizen I have no entitlements to any support anywhere so once I can’t work I starve, my only hope is for my ex to die.

    I so wish I had died in a previous attempt, misery for many people is not temporary, do not allow people to lie to you. For many there is no such place as ‘rock bottom’ there is ways farther to fall, sometimes life is so bad that anything worse is unbearable.

    If I was to name the biggest single failure it was being unable to attract a partner who would like (maybe even love) me, we evolved to pair bond and, despite what some people say (they’re lying) we need a partner.

    • M.C. says:

      I understand. My life has been hell. Im 37 no children. No real love interest constant monetary set backs. Everything I’ve tried to do to improve has back fired. So yes people don’t understand.

    • nolove says:

      I’m 40. Never been married and I have no children. Most of my relationships never made it pass 3 months. They would just break up with me and tell they just want to be friends. Every attempt to make my life better has failed. No love interest whatsoever. Tired of being disappointed by life and heartbroken by love. I sit here thinking about taking pills and washing it down with alcohol. I tried talking about it with a close friend but he doesn’t fully understand. I’ve been dealing with this for way too long. I can’t take another failed relationship or failed attempt at life.

    • akaisha says:

      Hi I read your story I’m 25 but your story is very similar to my life and ive felt it wont change and seeing your in your 60s and still miserable I guess my intuition was right. I too have been to the mental ward 4 times so I know how that feels and no one wanted to pick me up so I took a cab home once maybe twice cant remember if i was picked up the 1st time and the bus another time. I also know the doctors and nurses do not care about you at all just giving you meds and ignoring you the entire time I spent 2 weeks the last time I went but only 6 hours- 1 day the first time. I also have an abusive boyfriend he works nights so I get some time away from him and in the day hes mostly asleep but when he wakes up he puts me down and weekends he is the worst hes gotten better since he stopped drinking at the time the police was at our house every other week or week at that and sadly because of race they always blamed me even with him blackout drunk in front of them and over 20 beer cans present in our kitchen and our rooms they would say I have aggressive attitude or I’m loud because I’m black im sure which is racist because I’m a really quiet person. I’m also pregnant for the first time and these 7 months have been horrible my whole pregnancy is awful I had lost my insurance from moving the new county has taken months and still wont give me my insurance and I’m stuck going to a community clinic they have treated me like garbage make me wait 1-3 hours to see the dr when I have a appointment and the dr will talk to me for only 1-3 minutes -5 minutes if I’m lucky. I worry about the effect all of this will have on the baby at birth and growing up I know the abuse, medical neglect and police harassment and brutality will leave her with mental illness and I’m afraid also her dad is schizophrenic I found out after finding a doctors letter in his glove compartment he claimed it was a relatives when he snatched it from me and ripped it up and threw it into the trash well if it wasn’t yours why the crazy reaction over me seeing that someone else was nuts then? I knew that moment it was his paper he told me he will take his meds and he will change he has improved but I worry if he stops taking them or as he ages becomes senile since he is 16 years older than me and kill me or us. I depend on him because I do not work I had surgery last year for a break to my ankle on both sides and after a year since the injury I’m still limping and get swelling and pain in my foot, ankle and leg and I also don’t know how to drive and have no license I get anxiety when I try to drive and panic and I get very sleepy when in the car and don’t remember the rules of the road due to my poor memory and concentration skills. I have no family never have my mom didn’t want me after age 2 because my dad molested me and she told me as a teenager that I stole her man WOW! She passed 2015 as did my grandma who raised me in her place and was always verbally abusive calling me fat, ugly, telling me I stink or ho ever since I was about 5 she also bashed a chair into my back as a kid, hit me with stitches and pulled a knife to my throat and threatened to kill me but a family friend intervened and stopped her by jumping in front of me. I called the police they didn’t care said theyd arrest me because shes elderly and must have been in danger because I’m a heavy girl as a kid I called them they said no bruises no crime I had scratches they told me they will heal and I told a social worker who had came for an inspection I was hungry and being abused she didn’t care said theres kids living worse than me and at least theres something to eat I told her yes but I’m allergic to peanut butter and don’t know how to cook since that was what she’d bought they didn’t care. she later started buying food I could make but not for me but relatives when they moved with us later when they moved she stopped cooking and grocery shopping and would occasionally but I was old enough to feed myself. long story short because there is so much more to be said but I rather not I’m to tired and stressed out what advice would you give me? how has your miserable life affected your son? what can or should I do while I’m still somewhat young?

  180. Anonymous says:

    Im 11 and nothing good its chistmas eve

  181. Brek says:

    I’ve been feeling like I’ve wanted to die for a very long time now. I try to distract myself from it but the notion is always present in the back of my head. Friends, family, hobbies and doctors don’t help me at all. I’ve tried pretty much everything I could that’s supposedly anti suicide but it never really made me think any differently. Even when I go to sleep I’m plagued by dreams that don’t really bring any relief. It’s like constantly I find myself being told to kill myself by my conscious over and over again. I’m surprised I’m still alive to write this now. Before I was mentally depressed I weighed 180 pounds 5 weeks after that I dropped to 110 pounds reason being I was pretty much starving myself eating as little as a piece of toast every three days. I still weigh the same weight today even though my appetite is better then it used to be. People who see me me call me crack head/bulimic because I’m pretty much bone. Which is extremely hurtful to me, I never took part in either of those practices. The only drug I’ve used in my entire was marijuana. One of my family members have passed away and left me $8000 dollars im almost certain that I’m going to use that money for airline fare to the Netherlands and seek out euthanasia. What’s the point in living if it hurts to be alive? No one on my side could ever give me a answer.

    • Anonymous says:

      You may not be bulimic but anorexia yes have you been treated with meds yet

    • Joe says:

      It’s tough for a foreigner to be allowed euthanasia in another country, especially if it’s just for depression. You’d need to have a terminal illness. I recommend using the 8000 bucks you have to go travelling around the world you may just find inner peace and harmony, or someone who loves you, or whatever it is that makes you feel warm inside.

  182. Carla says:

    Recently, the moral status of suicide has been scrutinized by the poet and philosopher Jennifer Michael Hecht, in a book titled, Stay: A History of Suicide and the Philosophies Against It. Hecht wrote the book in the aftermath of two suicides—both victims were close friends and fellow poets. In essence, Hecht argues that suicide cannot be evaluated solely in terms of “personal autonomy,” as some modern ethicists might claim; rather, we must hold suicide up to the clarifying light of communal values. In an audiotape accompanying her book, Hecht argues that “When a person kills himself, he does wrenching damage to the community.” And this, surely, must be counted among the “moral harms” of deliberate self-destruction.

    I agree with Jennifer Hecht.

    The bottom line for me is that all of us, as part of a human community, must face and consider the enormous emotional toll suicide takes on those LOVED ONES who survive. We can empathize with, and respect, the tremendous pain that may drive some to suicide, and refrain from passing any harsh moral judgment on them… But we can also strongly encourage anyone who is suicidal to take some time to consider other options; to discuss his/her feelings with an empathic counselor or mental health professional; to avoid making an impulsive decision; to seek treatment for potentially reversible psychiatric problems; and–within the patient’s own system of values**–to discuss the effects suicide would likely have on friends, family, and loved ones!

    • Olufemi says:

      A particularly sick perspective. It is the stench of “communal values” that causes people to become suicidal in the first place.

    • Rethink says:

      I am sorry, but I don’t see how you can “empathize with, and respect the tremendous pain” that someone contemplating such possibilities might be going through if all that is thought of is “Loved ones”. How do you know that people considering suicide haven’t tried the things you propose, and those very people haven’t failed miserably? Don’t you think in many cases the person considering suicide hasn’t mentioned this to loved ones and those very people have selfishly ignored opportunities they had to help with a situation?
      The only exception in which I do believe one has a responsibility to continue on, is when that person has dependents. You brought someone into this world, and you do have an obligation to them. How can you expect someone to suffer on and on and on, just so someone else doesn’t have to go to a funeral? Isn’t that inflicting pain on the person suffering? I am just having a hard time seeing the genuine empathy, and respect for someone’s situation who may legitimately just be better off at peace. Keep in mind, that many times those who are contemplating, or carrying out the suicide have been ROUTINELY let down by that “community” Hecht seems to describe. Has she ever been to a state of desperation that those considering suicide are at, or is she just philosophizing? Sure, there are effects, but to make others in the community such victims all the time seems very short-sighted, and isn’t a perspective that really should be given much weight without further inspection. Often those in the community have made many many contributions to such a decision, and DO hold SOME (not all) responsibility. They aren’t always victims, and if they truly care about the person, should consider the pain that is being lifted off of the shoulders of the deceased.

    • Amelia says:

      Hecht was interviewed by Krista Tippett on her radio show/podcast, On Being. If interested, see link below:

      https://onbeing.org/programs/jennifer-michael-hecht-suicide-and-hope-for-our-future-selves

    • Peter says:

      What loved ones? Carla gave up to it you are going to die anyway and they have to face it. I would rather my 6 year old see me pass in a long sleep than have to live with a jibbering wreck post stroke

    • J W says:

      “But we can also strongly encourage anyone who is suicidal to take some time to consider other options; to discuss his/her feelings with an empathic counselor or mental health professional; to avoid making an impulsive decision; to seek treatment for potentially reversible psychiatric problems; and–within the patient’s own system of values**–to discuss the effects suicide would likely have on friends, family, and loved ones!”

      Ok. So what about the people that HAVE done that, for like….20 years? Not all mental health-problems are reversible. I’ve thrown tens of thousands of dollars over the course of two decades at various treatments. I literally bankrupted myself and spent every ounce of energy I had trying to get better, genuinely believing that I could get better…but I actually got worse.

    • Liz says:

      Um…”friends, family, and loved ones”?

      You realize if I actually had any of those at any time in my life, I wouldn’t be contemplating suicide now. Without exaggeration, no one wants to be my friend. I don’t make the cut. No one wants me in their life (and in my condition, I can’t fairly say I blame them). My own family abandoned me when I was desperately ill. No children, no pets. No job. And don’t even get me started on therapists–I can’t afford one. I could literally die today, and no one would know about it until the stench of my rotting body gave me away.

      Yes, social isolation like this exists, and may persist even when the individual is extremely proactive in trying to overcome it. You’re lucky you have such a well-connected life you can’t even conceive of this.

      So tell me again about the toll my death would take on someone. I’d like to know, for real.

  183. Anonymous says:

    I suppport the idea that if a person wants to die, it’s their decision and theirs alone. No group or government has any right to tell me or anyone else what to do with my/our bodies, and anybody who believes otherwise is a damned fool.

    Honestly? Pharmacies should start handing out nazi pills. Maybe require a thick stack of papers or something to be signed beforehand to make it “legal.”

    Some advice to you teens graduating from highschool: the whole ‘best years of your life’ schpiel is true; enjoy it while you can. Cuz if you don’t have any plans or connections afterwards, you’re basically screwed and you can thank our high and mighty government and hypocritical society both for it.

  184. Zack says:

    I often wonder if the people who write these articles truly know the pain of what people like me and others who contemplate suicide. Maybe it’s my cynical way of thinking, but I’m tired of reading, “Things can always change and life can always get better” in articles like these. It’s a painfully generic and conventional way of thinking by society that isn’t a solution to our own individual problems and pain we are each facing.

    I would love to have a positive perspective of living as much as the next person, but we need more unique ways of treatment for suicide that are specific to the person’s individual pain and not viewing everyone as the same.

    • nobody says:

      thank you zack. indeed the author being a therapist once again reaffirmed to me why it is hard for me to imagine them even beginning to help me. lets say that they can’t understand what it’s like, do they also lack all reason and imagination? more importantly they don’t respect the people they purportedly want to help? i mean, unless we are talking about children and adolescents, most of these comments, in their obviousness and oversimplification, are for many people actually are disrespectful, even offensive? heck they could even be akin to emotional abuse in some cases (in a gaslighting kind of way). they can’t even bother to consider maybe we have tried to live by and believe all of those things and they don’t work, or we ran out of fuel waiting for a positive change. especially at my age/disabilities/achievements/courage/education/career/achievements. I don’t mean $ or superficial aspects like that but my life in itself is testament to me having been a person who is resourceful, persistent, hardworking and capable of positive attitude and hope – else it would not be possible to be who I am/where I am today. it is not only disrespectful but also irrational to not consider I would have already had or encountered each and every idea in these “N things …” lists and thought them M times over (where M is > 1000^N) – what does it say that with despite proven record of ability to get things done, giving the situations and my inner attitude time to show any improvement, given that I have given daily consideration of suicide for three decades, multiple times daily for 15 years (chronic pain onset) and still not done it but I am saying that this is it, I am unable to find any solution but to fold this hand I was dealt? either they are wrong, or they are implying that I am a liar or fraud. yeah, you’re saying there are these simple solutions and I was somehow not using them, instead choosing to live an endless nightmare. if even real, how bad could my my pain and suffering have been if I didn’t try to alleviate them, but instead consider ending my life?

      these discussions and ‘treatment’ need to absolutely be individual, like you said. not all suicides are irrational, or even things to be sad about – factors that led to it sure, but not the suicide itself.

      ironic that they have a problem with that cliche with the ‘permanent solution’? excuse me, what part of not existing any more is not a solution to the problem of unbearable existence? perhaps the more unpopular aspect of this we need to consider is “a permanent solution” of any sort is not in the interest of the author and her ilk. if we don’t need them any more in the event of finding any permanent solution.

    • Abby says:

      Yessss! You understand. ♡

    • Paul says:

      Zack, to put it in simple terms those people that say things such as life will get better and so forth are thinking in terms of them self and not you or anyone else. The reason they say it is something called projection, they are projecting their feelings of life and death on other people. They do this thinking that it will help the problem, but what most people fail to realize is that none of the people on the planet think exactly the same. Also there are many broken people, and not all of them are thinking of suicide.

      Keep in mind that normal in psychological terms means that they are somewhere in the middle when it comes to abnormal psychology. The people who do best in the world are psychopaths, as the feelings of others and projected feelings of others have no effect on them. At the other end are people that are very attuned to the feelings of others and they are so empathetic that they are a threat to their own life as death is better to them than living in such a hurtful world. Normal people are able to function in society and exist somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.

      Also the only way that you are likely to have a positive outlook is on a few things that you know and love well. Things such as certain hobbies, or working a certain kind of job or a position in a company, etc. In other words you will have a positive outlook towards a certain thing or things, but not the world as a whole.

      I hope that this explains why some say the things that they do that are so hurtful, as I constantly have people that do the same thing. They live in a world in their mind that is completely separate from the world that I and others live in. Could say that they live in the world of illusion created by people thousands of years ago called religion. They do not see that people are telling the truth when they talk about the world be it Malcolm X, Ron Paul, Trump, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawkins, Alan Greenspan, Richard Feynman, or even Jesus Christ. If someone is talking and it does not fit in with their delusional world view they think that they are lying and that they are a fanatic. Also there is little that you, me or anyone else can say that can help them to see the world as you, me and everyone else that feels what is going on in the world is seeing (as they are blinded by delusion).

  185. m.m.mokhtar says:

    the world is corrupted enough , i made my own survey , about 90% of all i approached want to quit life for it is only sufferings and pains they said , but no one dared to take action because they simply scare the consequences , i am inclined to justify the support of the action legally if it is really impossible for one to live , we are not free anyway to take our life because we did not choose our birth in the first place , in terms of religions , socials and law we can not argue to let them accept such a commitment , but to make a piece of fun, who wants to live in this hard world with its all ridiculous obligations ?, and i noticed that most of the ones calling to decline sucide out of bravery are the first ones to welcome death in dignity and let go , indeed we should help those who are extremely desperate by offering them a solution if we can not do that then why do we unnecessarily keeping them to suffer ?, let them go may be they will find solutions and better life , i mean this decision is not taken lightly , the best person to know his status is the person himself let us respect their choice , i think we should pray too much to god for a redeem before one go to death in humiliation , high morals are not achieved in this life so far , enough deception , any route of thoughts that will not harm the others is logically tolerated , i am feeling really very very sorry for all who wrote their sad stories and i just want to tell them you had more than enough if it is your decision to let go just have a final look before you are committed and if there are no hopes then may be you can let go without regrets

  186. Someone Somewhere says:

    Leave them alone, let them die with some dignity (which is why I support euthanasia and assisted suicide of course) for goodness sake since they apparently couldn’t find any dignity being amongst the living. At least bother LISTENING to what they have to say (as opposed to simply hearing their words) instead of throwing tired cliches at them in which many make absolutely no sense on any level of basic logic, but it’s extremely rare to find anybody that actually does. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I think it’s extremely sad when minors (since they didn’t really give life a chance) or parents (because they abandoned their children) commit suicide but I mean if you spend every decade, year, week, day, hour in misery and/or incurable sickness, nothing makes up for it, you cannot afford to live or if you can it’s all moot because all your time and energy is gone once you DO earn it and there’s nothing going for you nobody should make you feel bad about cashing out early.

    I think the anti-suicide and pro-self esteem movement irritates me a lot because of the simple fact that they’re empty, hollow and not based on ANYTHING. Essentially nobody is allowed to face their own flaws and shortcomings; we have to wait for others to. People (especially children) are lied to from birth, told that they can “do anything they set their mind to so long as they work hard and never give up” and for some people this is true… but for those like me who are borderline-retarded and simply can’t and work hard only to end up exhausted for a whole lot of nothing, we’ve had the rug pulled from underneath. I angrily grit my teeth whenever someone calls someone else “lazy” or tells them “if I can do ____ you can too!” We all have different abilities and different levels of said abilities, and in this overpopulated sphere of god-crap floating in space, sometimes “our best” just isn’t enough. At least societies like feudal Japan had the guts to tell people they need to commit ritual suicide if they weren’t “good enough” and were “dishonorable” and actually mean it instead of this soft, fake smarmy crap they have today telling people they’re “perfect just the way they are” and everyone getting a “participation trophy” only to have that all slap them back in the face twice as hard once they face the real world. They want people to live on not because they actually CARE about anyone that’s suicidal but people always need SOME sort of scapegoat right? It’s just like how the bully doesn’t actually want the receiver of their harassment to die… if so, who would be their mark right? Society says don’t kill yourself and you can be as miserable as you feel, just don’t disturb the rest of the workers on the sweatshop floor with your crying and angst.

    I apologize for anything stupid I’ve said as this all is hard for me to articulate and I am far from an intelligent being… this is just my 2 cents.

    • PyroFalkon says:

      I never thought anyone would feel like I did. “Someone Somewhere,” you absolutely pulled the words out of my head. I don’t think you said anything “stupid” at all. It’s really brilliant, actually.

      I want to die. Life hasn’t gotten any better since I hit adulthood 15 years ago; it won’t in another 15. And I’ve heard tons of people tell me that my attitude is just a sign of “a pity party,” a phrase I absolutely loathe.

      If my shortcomings are my fault — and I’m open to the possibility they are — then doesn’t it stand to reason if I put a bullet in my head, I’ll be doing the world a favor? I’d get out of everyone else’s way, and my organs would go to someone who wants life infinitely more than I do. Seems win-win to me.

      ~PyroFalkon

    • Paul says:

      Actually you are correct I say this from an educated standpoint. We live in a fake society just as you stated. Problem is that most people are too as you put it retarded either because of their faith or mental blindness to the world around them. In fact I see as many people as insane in the basic definition of the term, that is they are disconnected and unaware of the world around them more so than a person doped up so much that they do not know what is going on around them.

      The key thing is that most people that are locked up as mentally a threat to themselves are the ones that are least able to ignore the pain that living in this form of society causes. I also remember a video by John Allee about Does Religion cause Insanity. Fact of the matter Faith is insanity, as it is believing things that go against all that can be proven and shown as fact of the real world.

      I put forward a question to think about God is all good, God is all powerful, God lets suffering occur in this world. In fact this is a false statement, but many try and prove it true. If God were all powerful and there is suffering, this means that God is NOT all good, and if God is all good then God is not all powerful. In fact this old saying mostly says that God just does not exist.

      Also I have noticed and others as well that those that are mostly afraid of dying when they are ill or quite old are those that have faith in God. They are the ones that think that there is a Heaven or Hell that awaits them when they die. It is rather ironic that those that many would think would have the most to look forward to in an afterlife are most afraid to go. In fact those that do not believe in an afterlife because they are Atheists are far less afraid of dying. They believe that when you die that is it, nothing after that. Personally I believe that it is somewhere in between based on the things that I have personally seen happen in my life that make no scientific sense.

      Just one thing that many are not aware of in the USA, UK, and some other countries our government sees us as Chattel, something to borrow money against for their national debts by the possession of our birth certificates. Why else would a country want people to exist that basically are unable to fully function to the point that they are able to fully enjoy life. To this I say it is better to be dead than a slave, and the only way that a society can counter such thoughts is to negate them with religion.

      There is the real world in a nutshell, simplified form.

    • Anonymous says:

      Try being the loved one of someone who committed suicide…your tirade is so naive. The majority of the time suicide is due to an untreated mental disorder. Those left behind suffer every single day. They suffer because we don’t acknowledge mental illness and stigmatize it as a society. You are the problem. I would never wish this kind of pain on anyone. I lost my life, my love due to this…and you are still alive and get to feel self righteous…

    • Someone Somewhere says:

      you are wrong anonymous. I HAVE lost people who are very near and dear to me to suicide. At least two of them were some of my best friends and though every day it does pain me on a personal level that they’re gone and I wish I could’ve helped them in any way even if it meant I wouldn’t sleep for over 24 hours, the fact remains that they are dead and at least they aren’t suffering anymore (I don’t buy “hell” of any sort either; just another thing to scare people away from thinking for themselves.) In fact, a few years ago I learned one of my uncles would frequently attempt suicide and because my family keeps me in the dark about EVERYTHING it’s possible he may have killed himself. Not knowing if he did or not torments me all the time too.

      I’m very sorry you’ve lost a loved one to suicide but my point is, from personal experience, it’s usually best not to assume things about others.

    • J W says:

      You actually come across as highly intelligent and articulate, and I enjoyed reading what you have to say. I agree with it all.

  187. tammy says:

    If people consider an abortion a womans choice because of the my body my choice then suicide should be the same because in abortion its not your body its murder of a living body inside yours. In suicide it is your body so should be your choice.

    • Paul says:

      I’m a guy and agree with you, and it is for this reason I have no children. Why would someone want to bring a child into the world when that child later when they become an adult are not fully in control of their body because it is basically not your own property.

    • Anonymous says:

      please abortion and suicide are not the same thing

  188. James G says:

    36 yrs of tearing down and rebuilding and tearing down and rebuilding……someone please make it painless

  189. Diana G says:

    Suicide is NOT automatically caused by a mental illness. 25 years of abuse, (even from strangers), debilitating chronic pain, disability that results in having to live on $700/month in which one can’t cover the BASIC life necessities like food, hygiene, shoes, etc. Burying 2 children, 2 Siblings, both Parents, 2 Husbands, literally being alone, being disfigured from symptoms of RSD, NO monetary help available….. There’s not enough room to post everything. I did attempt suicide & ended up on Life Support for 9 days. No I’m not happy I survived because short of a financial windfall my Hell will never get better. My 2nd Spouse died from Cancer December 21st & Son died Jan. 2nd from SIDS. My B-Day is on Christmas & I as usual have $6.41 for the rest of the month. (No food banks don’t solve the problem b/c people with medical conditions will also have dietary restrictions).
    I’m sitting in a dump roach infested apartment alone again & then another year comes and it starts all over again. Pain, grief, sadness, & being stereotyped / glared at because a large % of people falsely assume that I’m homeless/ have a drug history (RSD can cause tooth loss), then I’m treated like a cockroach. I’m a College educated retired EMT/ Medic.
    Well I don’t know what more to say….
    But thanks for reading this.

    • Paul says:

      I hear you, and not all of us automatically judge people just by appearance. As many in the world today are not able to do as well as we have in the past. It is things just as you say that make me wish that we all lived in a country that really did care about people and realize that life is more than just mere existence, and be willing to think about Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and realize that when people are not able to work it is not always because they are lazy, but because they are no longer able to do so mentally physically or both. Also for them to go on they need to have many needs met. There are some countries that treat people better than here, but they have been overwhelmed with migrants lately because of greedy people driving them there.

  190. Anonymous says:

    I’m tired

  191. AC says:

    I think we should be allowed to die if we choose. The mental health system sucks and you can’t even have honest conversation with your doctors about suicide without being doped up or locked away. You can’t talk to friends or family without them being afraid. Perhaps this is because people always assume living is best. If we can’t truthfully communicate our experience, because of the cultural discomfort of others, we are then further disconnected and isolated. The world is crooked and phony. I want nothing more from it.

    • Plus,if you think about it, being able to choose the when can be a perverse locus of control.

    • Brent F. says:

      Being alive is the worst gift imaginable. If it had a numeric value it’s the most negative number than can be stored in the computer. If I were omnipontent I’d go to my deity and demand that I get my money back. That is the main reason why I will go out of my way to never have sexual intercourse with another organism to the best of my ability for all eternity. I am dissatisfied with the product. Society tells a lie that the fact you are concious and alive is some sort of gift. I can’t imagine a gift any worse within the space of all nouns in the multiverse. It is dead last of things with a value. Even worse is the fact that killing yourself does nothing (a complete no-op) and you still continue to live forever and ever.

  192. Jennifer A says:

    I can’t remember a time when life was better than death. I’m apparently invincible, the only reason I haven’t tried again is that my children don’t understand that their lives would be better without me. I took 120 Xanax, 90 ambien, 170 baclofen, 75 soma, 100 80mg mscontin, and 40 30mg oxycodone, and 50 Phenergan. Yes, all at once.
    So, I realized I fail at even this.
    My children are 16, 17, 22. Soon they’ll understand that me being gone could only make their lives more joyful, relaxed, relieved, and then they’ll have my family that hates me, in their life.
    I know y’all have a knee jerk reaction and try to say the pain is temporary… well it’s not. There’s a few days I go without constantly thinking about it, but those are far and few between. I’m only waiting until they are old enough that it won’t break them. They’ll grieve for a moment, but I know they’ll get over it and understand.

  193. Chron says:

    I’m not sure I want to kill myself even though I tell everyone that I do. I think I’m just chronically unhappy and ungrateful. I think I’m a grown-up child who doesn’t really know how to correctly cope with my shitty life. I attempted suicide once before. I cut my wrist and wound up in a mental institution, but the therapy doesn’t really help that much. This may sound shallow, but I don’t think I would have this problem if I were very wealthy. I think if I had enough money I could at least distract myself from myself for at least long enough to die of old age.

    • Paul says:

      Keep in mind that you are correct, also death as you put it would not even be on your mind if you were wealthy. As a society (this society, not tribal) the way we kill and harm others in a socially acceptable manner is to make them poor, the less money that they have is the way that people are harmed in this society, and when the harm goes far enough they die.

  194. Paul says:

    You are wrong about people not able to understand that the world is mostly lies. Most people that understand how society functions in whole know this is simply a fact of life. Problem is that most people are unable to handle the fact that they are living a lie. Life did not start off this way, but has progressed this way as society has declined over many many years. There are times when society is improving and there is no need for lies to get people to contribute. One thing to keep in mind is that what we are going through now is nothing new, just new to us in this society and country. Rome, China, Greece and many other countries have gone through what we are now. However it hurts and we are not willing to admit life is getting harder for most people while a small minority are doing better than in the past. This is our standard of living. It is not your imagination, and to live in the moment you have to be aware of it. Don’t let the God will fix it crowd get to you, as they are part of the problem. If people do not work to solve problems, the problems do not go away but get worse till it all falls apart, then it will get fixed.

  195. Dale W says:

    Am I just spinning my wheels here. More proof that I am correct, in that there is no help for anyone who is truly disabled. It is pointless to ever even try. I have long been considering a hunger strike. May as well. I can’t afford to eat any more anyways. Also avoid fraudulent mental health abuse and exploitation, as hunger strikes are constitutionally protected form of protest under the first amendment to the Constitution of the USA.

  196. Larry says:

    It’s no longer emotional for me. I’ve been on my own for 7 years of my life. George Carlin talks a lot about luck, about how people are born with it. There are some people who have lots of luck, and others…

    I haven’t had any luck. I made a career for myself, moved away, started something with promise. All of it is meaningless, it’s all status, everything I own is just something to distract me from my real feelings.

    I’ve felt this way my whole life. I’ve put up a front ever since I moved away, because I didn’t and still don’t want anyone to know how I truly feel. People judge you a lot for saying you want to die, with good understanding.

    You know that feeling, when you’re loved by someone, and love yourself. I haven’t had that. I’ve had girlfriends, been “in love” before, but never, truly loved someone. It’s really depressing. Incredibly so.

    I don’t feel pity for myself, I don’t feel like I want to die because it’s the easy way out, I feel this way because I’ve tried so hard to succeed emotionally, physically, mentally. I’ve tried my whole life. I’m tired of trying. I’m tired of being tired.

    There’s going to be a point where I am no longer going to vent about this and take actions into hand. The only thing stopping me? My parents and siblings. I know it would irreversibly kill them to know I feel this way, and that I did what I did because I wanted to die.

    Please tell me there are people who feel the same. I can’t be alone…

    • Paul says:

      The only person you and others really only need to love and be loved by firstly is yourself. We all need to love ourselves more than anyone else to get enjoyment out of life.

      I hope that this makes sense to you, as we are not able to be really loved by others if we do not love ourselves first.

    • LarryCan you see me says:

      I want to understand you Larry. I just made this fake account to respond to you. I don’t want to be a cliche and say I get what you’re feeling/ going through, but. I feel a need to be around you or interact with you.
      I’m sorry.
      – English is not my native language. I wish i could see you.

    • chancerylane says:

      You are not alone. I feel the same.

      I have tried, tried, tried. In the end I got what I wanted, only to be struck down by a chronic illness, which is not serious enough for any organisation to have mercy on me.

      So my only option is to exist. The thing is; I don’t want to exist, I want to live, but I cannot.

      I had my fair share of happy, wonderful memories, and I am ready to go, but I don’t know how. All of the readily available options seem messy and prone to failure.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are not alone.

    • lila says:

      I feel that way every single day

  197. Dale W says:

    What about my situation? I have to die because I can no longer live without a lot of help. I am permanently disabled, physically, and there is no real help for the truly disabled in the USA. I am in so much pain all the time and have been treated so inhumanely that I will be better off dead. As I said, I have no choice. Continuing to live is an impossibility. I can no longer afford to live. Any attempt to get any kind of help has resulted in me being mistreated in some way. Health care professionals have strongly urged me to commit suicide, as they would rather I blow my brains out than have to treat my pain.

  198. Anonymous says:

    My mother shot herself in June 2011. Im 39 but she had spoken of suicide shortly after finding her father had committed suicide…Ive had down thoughts….always smoked pot n wouldnt take pharma drugs like my mom….this past january my wife was killed by an unlicensed driver…I dont wish to kill myself…I have 3 kids from a marriage that dissolved after my mothers death which left me incapable of functioning. But when my wife was killed I lost my mind. I lost my job. I lost my house…everything. They didnt charge the driver…but now I see…I see the desire to go home. The desire to be with my wife…if the afterlife is real Id rather be there…If its not then nothing is better or worse except for my kids…which keep me here….but why? My mom told us for years she kept me or one of my sisters around to prevent her killing herself…she wouldnt go to the store alone. I cussed her out n said then do it after years of hearing how much she wanted to…every drug in the country every dr available…even a pacemaker device to shoot happy drugs into her from her own brain…all the drugs did was mess her internals up…all her drugs would work a week then not…but her body felt the experimentation…maybe life just sux for some…if anyone else doesnt see it…but it does…as for me…Im not long here…I believe in God…humanity…but Im ready to take judgement and just be done with this test…my kids make it where I have to stay here…Im so fkn ready to check out…I dont have shit to give them anyway but a shadow of the man they know…you people talk about solutions…maybe its a mercy provided by the self

  199. Rian T says:

    Yes i feel similar to other comments, “suicides feeling are fluid” shows a blissful unawareness of the magnitude of the problem, and why so many people (the third biggest killer of men under 50) for example, chose to kill themselves. It is not done lightheartedly, as if there is another choice. Many i suspect are middle aged at least and have suffered for 30 or so years looking for an answer from their mental torture.The only reason people don’t do it or regret their decision after trying, is because they still have an element of hope there. This does not mean that their hope is logical. After 30 or 40 years of depression for example, i suspect that after that period of time, that the hope is misplaced, and if they have not found a cure after all that time at trying, that the hope is false, Of course no one wants to die, they would prefer their mental anguish to end, and the hope keeps them going. Just because people have survived suicide attempts, it does not mean they are happy or would not prefer to have died if this is how it remains for them. Hope keeps them going. In most cases regretfully, mental illness will not be cured if they have suffered for so many years, they will keep going and find ways to cope, often because of family/children they have. This is far different to being content or happy after suicide attempts.

  200. I really think you underestimate people. If a person wants to end it, they’re going to. No justification is going to help them – in fact, it may push them even further.

    • Jessica says:

      I absolutely agree with you as a lot of it describes me to a tee. I live for my children and my husband not for myself. If it weren’t for them I guarantee I wound not be here.

  201. Sofia says:

    I’ve been miserable since I was 8 years old Now 40 years old I lost my beloved Son I just want to die trying to find the easy way

    • Julie says:

      The loss of a child causes pain that’s indescribable. You are not alone. Please know that I am here to talk.

    • joseph1777 says:

      I have had depression for 40 years now and it has not gotten better but more so it has become worse over the years. It makes for a very miserable life. I have asked God for healing and though I believe He hears our prayers I have not been healed for whatever reasons He has in His will. Now I just ask for Him to take me home in my sleep. I dont feel much like living but I do not believe suicide is the right thing to do as it is considered ~killing~ which is against God’s commandments. That’s why I ask Him to make the choice for me. I feel mental illness and depression is the worst feeling one can experience. It is like your shadow and follows you every moment of your day. I would do anything to be free of this terrible illness

    • joseph1777 says:

      I am sorry that you grieve so much and it is understandable after what you have been through, I have suffered as well from major depression and it is the most awful thing I can think could happen to us. I pray for God to take me home. I do not want to suffer anymore. We only have God to put our trust and hope in. Gods love be with you my friend~

    • Anonymous says:

      I hate my life my family doesn’t care for me meaning I’m the least favorite my brother tells my friends untrue things about me and I lose most my friends because of it everyone makes fun of me because of my voice and I feel like a ghost that nobody even notices me

  202. Lucy says:

    Well no its not possible in reality. We live in a world of dualities and opposites that are forever bound to one another, no life without death, no happiness without suffering, no up without down. As for my own situation which you cannot ascertain I will only add that I am not opposed to suicide on any level which means every persons life is his.

  203. Tom Hal says:

    Stacey, please don’t take my comment as an attack, but after reading your recent comments (14 November…) it is clear to me that what I and others have suspected is “true” is enough so to justify our decisions not to engage the professional therapeutic community. It seems to me there are two camps present in this comment section, and this delineation is manifest just about everywhere–among lay and professionals–where right-to-die arguments pop up. On the one hand are those who are suffering–terribly and for decades–lives they just don’t want and which therapists haven’t been able to provide sufficient (if any) relief from. On the other hand are those who, for many different reasons, enjoy the luxury of deliberation–of hypothesizing and building abstract arguments and speculating. The former live-and-breathe suffering while the latter get to utter lines like, “It is one of the strange discoveries a man can make that life, however you lead it, contains moments of exhilaration; there are always comparisons which can be made with worse times: even in danger and misery the pendulum swings.”

    There can be no compromise, I think, where someone wants something for herself that is fundamentally a private and personal matter (like whom she loves or what she aspires to or when she is ready for life to end) and imperatives passed down by the state that circumscribe individual rights on how we exist (like banning affection among lesbians or preventing blacks from learning to read or forcing the suffering who wish to die to continually reevaluate the lives they don’t want and stay alive).

    And while I don’t at all mean to be cruel, the Greene quote has nothing to do with the decision to end one’s own life. That is an evaluative judgment, not a matter of empiricism. Unless cognitive neuroscience has since rigorously demonstrated a treatable global cause-effect molecular-cellular pathology uniquely responsible for suicidal ideation, at least for many of us the decision to leave life is a free response to our experiences of life, which are valid regardless others’ impressions of their own lives–and life in general.

    Nor should the possibility of abuse among some obviate the right of the rest of us to decide on our own lives, especially possibilities like the extreme circumstances you’ve outlined. Just as I have no business deciding for a woman whether she should or should not have a child, I do not see it as anyone else’s business how and when I die, so long as I am not a threat to others. Thank you for demonstrating to me just why participating in discussions like the ones in this comment section is fruitless, for me.

    I wish my country were advanced enough ethically to recognize my right to leave life in a legally and medically sound and compassionate way, but I won’t beg or argue anymore. Thankfully, I am able-bodied and can act as I see fit without seeking anyone else’s permission.

    • Bella says:

      I love you, Tom. I’m in similar shoes, but I think you SHOULD realize your potential to inspire. I feel like shit every single day, yet YOU made me feel a bit better. Thank you. You are loved.

  204. An art channel says:

    Suicide should NOT ALWAYS be prevented, as you’ve stated some people have temporary problems, or they feel stuck in a situation! However when the suffering is due to a total disconnect from the world and people, and if one lives his/her life without being able to communicate, share and contribute then suicide could be a way out! What’s the meaning of life if one cannot live it with others? Or even without others as we are all part of a big organismic system! I’m contemplating suicide and physician assisted would help me end the daily sufferings! It is very painful to see the world with your eyes wide open and your senses alert, while people simulate the “walking dead”

    • i no longer have a connection with any one in this world… i am drawn to some Thing beyond explanation… i encounter it during deeep sleep.. this world is All Lies, and Deception and Propaganda…. living the Lie is Too Painfull… no one seems to understand. .. I’ve told both my parents, in detail… and they were both too busy to put together any sort of response…. my dad actually stopped talking to me…. a year ago now. Daily life is pure suffering… rarely do i go a day without contemplating suicide. I know this world is some sort of training ground for souls, … there is no thing left for me here…

    • Paul says:

      Just because someone is totally disconnected from society does not mean that they should not be able to enjoy life, only thing is that when totally disconnected are they able to live as a hermit away from society and enjoy it? If true they really have no reason to want to leave their existence.

      Why must everyone live in a way that others say is normal, what about what is normal and feels right and is enjoyable for that person?

  205. mokhtar says:

    no body will encourage you to commit sucide simply because they do not feel the way you feel even they can understand you, life is too short wait for natural death because you do not know what is waiting you on the other side it may be worse than what you are suffering right now and i hope it will not be so, from your message i understand you are very sensitive person, awesome but you actually you did not find your proper enviroment, try to change your location even temporary you will discover new life and new ideas that can make you satisfied, you are still young and who knows that chances are waiting for you, give more time before taking your decision, understand you are not alone others are suffering more than you, if you intend to terminate your life just wait because natural death can come even before your attempt

  206. James G says:

    “I can understand you ­and a lot of people (­including myself) are­ concerned about what­ those checks and bal­ances will end up bei­ng but I can’t see an­y example you’ve brou­ght up that would pas­s any criteria that w­ould be in place. Of ­course I may have mis­sed some so excuse me­ if I’m incorrect.

    It’s akin to laws put­ in place for someone­ charged with murder ­for example. For the ­most part evidence is­ required and guilt beyond reasonable doub­t is required to sent­ence someone to priso­n. ”

    Perhaps some simple guidelines. Minimum age of 30 or 35 years of age. A waiting period of 2 to 3 weeks. Time for examination of medical background by professionals to prove history of attempting to treat illness. Here is part of my story.

    A few days ago I unfriended everyone on FB. I do mean everyone. Why ? Because it is painfully clear that it is hard to be my friend. I spent endless hours on fb checking to see what everyone was doing, I badly wanted to be a part of their lives. I was living vicariously through everyone’s posts, making funny
    (stupid ) little comments. Some were received well, ok, Kerri Xxxxxx was really the only person kind to “humor” me. In hindsight I think it was one of those, awwww poor Jim things. Still, she is always sweet.

    There were others who ” liked” my comments but mostly I was ignored and rightly so. I now realize that I have done this all my life, inviting myself into other peoples conversations, activities and lives. Kinda creepy now that I see it. I kinda knew that I was trying too hard to become involved but the nagging feelings of emptiness and loneliness were running the show.

    I’ve been bothered for a long time by the realization that I’m very rarely called by anyone. Let alone invited to something. Most people didn’t want me in their lives to begin with. The rest are family and they have just seen enough. Most people will take a look at a car accident when passing by but if it’s
    bad, injuries, blood ect., we quickly turn away. It’s too hard to see. I think I’m the gory car accident. Just too hard to look at .

    I actually had a couple people honest enough to tell me “dude it isn’t easy to be your friend.” Hell, 20 yrs. ago a friend told me that I had an abrasive personality. Took me this long to really get it. Also, it’s finally sinking in that I wear people out. Family, friends, coworkers, and lovers eventually start to
    distance themselves from me. In hindsight I don’t blame any of you. I’m a downer. I’m needy. I’m unpredictable. I’m a drunk and drug addict. I’m a pain in the ass.

    There has been 48 yrs of having trouble making and keeping friends. I’m 48 yrs old now. So yea, always. I used to think I was broken, that something inside me just wasn’t right. A birth defect maybe. Actually I like the sound of that. No one is ever looked down upon for having a birth defect. Then I
    could blame God, lol, if I believed in God.

    I’ve tried to change. I’ve gone to great lengths to change but here we are. It has also recently occurred to me that I have not once in my life pulled myself out of a tight spot. Whether the problem was financial , legal , drinking or drug problems, I’ve always had to lean on someone. Pathetic ,sad, disgraceful . 48 yrs old and not once picked myself up and pushed on.

    At a very young age I experienced what some might consider hell. Around 14yrs old without any specific provocation I swallowed 200 asprin. I began creating my own hell. Throwing gasoline on everything that mattered to me. My shrink and I determined that the depression started around 12yrs old. I didn’t have a clue how to fix things. Apparently I still don’t. In high-school some called me “suicide” man. Also, for as long as I can remember have often had an intense feeling that there was something wrong, something huge missing. When I say intense I mean
    the kind of thing that feels like life or death. I’ve proceeded to try to fill that with anything and everything that helps quiet the feelings. Doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad, just STOP the noise in my head.

    The noise, maybe 20% of the time, is a mild nagging set of thoughts. Constant and clear. “You SUCK!” “You’re worthless!” “ You should just kill yourself!” Yes, compared to the bad days, that is mild. The rest of the time depending on the circumstances, it becomes deafening. The stress level, the
    anxiety, has it been cloudy or sunny, these things make a huge difference. On my best day I feel tired and small. My worst? I can’t fucking describe noise in my head. At this very moment I am vacillating between thoughts of suicide and asking for help, again.

    In the last 3 years these symptoms have become much worse. I now know what Bipolar is. Driving down the road and having a good day in the morning to bawling like a fucking baby after lunch. This has become a regular thing in the past year.

    I’ve been thinking about suicide every day for the past year and a half. Six weeks ago I quit my good job of 10 years. I had a very understanding boss but I couldn’t safely operate my Semi because of the distracting noise in my head. I intend to end all of this a few days after Thanksgiving.

    There needs to be a way for a person with a proven history to safely, calmly and without disgrace to leave this all behind.

    • Anonymous says:

      I feel for you, and want to leave too. I have the same thoughts run through my head, but my condition is more of a Borderline Personality Disorder. So I have a lot of situational anxiety and depression, with bouts of rage and hopelessness.

      The only thing that brings a shred of relief is seeing my family, or escaping reality.

      The only way I’m still holding my job is that I mainly work alone, without too much supervision. When I start having to deal with additional work though, or co-workers too often…it gets bad.

      And I understand about the Facebook thing. I tried to reach out to my list of friends and family and was sorely disappointed. No one wants serious talk, just humorous and carefree. So I quit my account.

      So anyway, I get you, even if that doesn’t matter. I hope whatever you decide to do works out for you. Meaning, if you truly want to go, don’t screw it up like I did.

    • John says:

      I hope to hell you don’t kill yourself. Our stories are almost mirror images. You have a decade on me and had a good job otherwise our issues are similar. I wish I knew the answer, but I don’t. I hope you find some peace.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Thanks for sharing this. It’s very meaningful to me. Wish we could speak.

    • lauren says:

      Your story sounds like my story. I am 50 years old and female, that is the only difference. I would love to find a peaceful way to be able to die. I have thought about dying every day for the past 3 years. I was fascinated with a story about suicide being legal and assistance available in France. I would go there if I could. I guess I’m saying you are not the only one who is going through the hell of living a life you don’t want live anymore.

    • Anonymous says:

      James. Hoping you’re still here NOT because I want to blow sunshine up your ass, but because your post TOTALLY resonated with me. Same age (diff gender), pariah over time, hard to be friends with/close to.
      Came on this site to philosophize and try to get perspective. I have MMO but not balls. So far.

    • Amy LifeStar says:

      Dear James,

      My name is Amy LifeStar! As a starting point in the conversation in relation to what you posted; “Friends in actuality and in the 5th Dimensional World and Space are not that important or even important at all” because ultimately, you are your own best and true friend or at least try to be your own best friend at all times despite how tough the world has been—for and to—you!

      Even when a person has tons of friends, it does not mean that those so-called “friends” would hold this person’s hands and pat on his/her back when this person is falling or in deep water! This occurs because “many people are not being sincere, kind, and empathic per se; and most likely they are not even being kind, genuine, empathic, etc. to themselves let alone understanding and accepting themselves for who they are; what they are; how they became what they became; the future image/development they desired to become, and so on so forth!”

      Therefore, there is no need to “desire for insignificant and superficial friendships or relationships in our lives.” In essence and in truth, you would be the one who has and needs to face and handle whatever comes your way in a “Courageous, Appropriate, Creative, Wise, and Honorable Way!” Nevertheless, despite our best actions, intentions, and perseverance to make it work and make it beautiful for ourselves; there are and will be people in our physical surroundings (not necessarily our friends, family, or acquaintances) Standing in Our Way—to Stop Us to be in the Exact and Necessary Pathway(s) that We Needed to be in—in order to proceed or progress to the level of “Liberation of Our Wounds, Torments, Sufferings, etc.!” The truth is there are many evil, dark, and twisted beings (people) on earth and around us; and this reason explains why there are so many human beings “wanted out or wanted quit”
      from a Tormenting Life (whatever kinds of torments that Forced these human beings to desired to exit Planet Earth: ending its own sufferings and torments by not existing (commonly distorted term: suicide).

      Ultimately, “Understanding, Accepting, Acknowledging, Loving, and Honoring Oneself throughout Time and Space is extremely crucial to continue to Exist in the constant Turbulent, Unkind, Merciless, Unethical, Devious, Vicious, and Twisted Society and World—the 3rd Dimensional world!”

      —By Amy LifeStar, HD & Ethicist

      *For more insights on the subject matter, please refer to my comment on November 12, 2016. Take care, James!

  207. Anonymous says:

    “Do you think suicides should always be prevented? Yes or no, what are your reasons?”
    NO

    Well, humans do euthanize their pets because they think its more humane to let them die then to live but suffer, they kill other soul, yet telling that human shoudn’t kill them self?
    it’s their own life, they can decide it themself, human should be allowed to suicide if they suffering in life

    I am a failure, no one needs me, no one wants me. Everyday feel so lonely and painful, it’s hard to sleep because it hurts so much, I wanna cry every single night but I can’t anymore
    Life has no meaning at all, I have no purpose in life

    Don’t say u care about me…about people like us, not even our family and people around us care
    and you here in internet are just strangers, who only write sweet words with no meaning

    “Think about it, there always tomorrow”
    I already want to die since elementary school, and now I am almost 30, there is a lot of ‘tomorrow’, and here I am, life isn’t getting better at all, it’s just more and more painful
    Back then whenever I feel bad, I use scissors, knife, needle, or cutter to cut my body, that kind of pain is better than the pain inside me, at least it can distract me for a while
    I drunk almost a bowl of detergent, that thing can’t kill, just makes your body feel horrible for a night

    I want to die so bad, but I’m a coward, I don’t have the courage to do it,
    if only they could euthanize me too, I will be really thankful that finally this all can end

  208. Nikki says:

    this just made me extremely sad… This is scary.

  209. Cristian says:

    Well if the person has no family, no friends, and most of the world hates them or treat them like an outcast because of internet shaming what’s the point in them continuing to live. Especially when the few people who do care about them avoid hanging out with them so that their reputation doesn’t go down. Suicide is never a good idea, but some times a person really has nothing to go on for.

    • Anonymous says:

      I’ve been Suicidal off and on for 7 years (20 to 27). I think about death all the time and I can’t even work my cushy job.

      I can tell you are a teen and I’d say this: it gets better, it gets worse, it gets different. Popularity is fickle. Post high school you get more control over your friend group, especially as you earn money.

  210. Donald Prettyman says:

    Tell them nooo0…….. theirs Always tomorrow 🙂

    • Brittany says:

      we are not promised tomorrow or a second. God can take us anytime

    • John says:

      That’s the problem there is always tomorrow..and the day after .and the day after…day after day…of things that I CANNOT change..and that’s what I NEED…CHANGE…the change I want not the change others want for me..I can’t be myself, no one wants me…If I be what They want me to be, I’m not myself..I’m screwed

    • Sam says:

      Endless suffering everyday and tomorrow, so meaningless is your comment.

  211. Anonymous says:

    Bipolar Depression is not temporary

  212. Alex says:

    Stacy,

    The right to die has been hotly debated for decades. In this area, as well as in the area of abortion, we observe two fallacious positions: one right-wing, religiously-motivated faction which seeks to impose life on everyone and everything, even corpses, and one slightly less right-wing, liberalism-motivated faction which proposes a “moderate” position.

    Just to be clear before I continue, by right to die I include all the ways by which one can voluntarily die: suicide, assisted suicide (where the means of death have been provided by someone else) and euthanasia (where a third party performs the act).

    First, let me reject some arguments motivated by irrational worldviews. First, the Christian belief that killing ourselves is an assault against God’s ownership of human beings, and the liberal/Libertarian belief in self-ownership as justifying bodily destruction; I have debunked both of these as they pertained to abortion, and the same reasoning applies here (self-ownership is tautological, God’s will cannot have any ethical consequences, the Bible does not consider suicide to be unethical).

    So, is there such a thing as a right to die? There is a clear conflict between those who wish to die and those who try to stop them from doing so. Following Tucker’s theorem (that the invader’s values must be subordinated to those of the invaded), our criterion to choose who is in the right is by looking at who is imposing their values on the other.

    From this point, the arguments from both sides go roughly as follows. The anti-right view would hold that the prospective suicides are interfering with their own values by desiring to extinguish them (even going so far as to call it “self-murder”), and would also argue that the suicides, if their plan succeeds, interfere with society as a whole and with God’s plans (the latter point, of course, can be dismissed). The moderate view accepts the personal and social losses as being relevant, but balances them with the expected future of the suicides, so that the freedom to die is acceptable in some circumstances as a self-determined choice, and not in others.

    I reject the utilitarian arguments on the ground that we can’t possibly make any inter-subjective comparisons. Whether the suffering that the suicides spare themselves is greater or lesser than the suffering of their loved ones is a pointless question. As for social losses, not only is it another consequentialist argument, but studies have shown that when we take into account the potential losses to society due to old age costs and psychological issues, suicide is actually economically beneficial (to the tune of around 150,000$ per person in the US), so I also reject this as a consideration.

    So, having whittled down each side, we have two simpler conflicting views. The first is that the suicides are fulfilling their values and that the suicide-stoppers are interfering with the suicides’ freedom to express their values. The second is that the suicides are interfering with other people’s values (say, the suicide’s spouse, who depends on em in order to fulfill relational values) without their consent, and that therefore stopping them is just.

    Now the answer is clear. The former narrative is the correct one, because no one has the right to demand that any specific person help them fulfill their values. Again we come back to the house on fire example: if your house is on fire, you can rightly expect the firemen to deal with the fire, but you don’t have the right to demand that any random bystander run into the house to save someone. Likewise, I have no right to expect a specific person to remain alive because I need my relationship with them (the case of a person with children is another matter, which I will take up at the end for the sake of argument flow).

    Another problem is that we cannot use emotional distress as an objective standard. While it may be true that a suicide may inflict emotional distress on those around them, this may also be true of someone who decides to remain alive and burden people around them. Should we therefore mandate suicide on that basis as well? I am open to arguments for mandating suicide, but prima facie this seems unreasonable. It seems much more likely that distress is, like all emotions, not sufficient evidence to indicate that criminal harm has been inflicted on someone.

    So I conclude that the suicide is actually in the right, and anyone who tries to stop them is in the wrong.

    Let’s look further at the issue of consent. In order to be justified, any action must necessarily involve the consent of all parties involved. The anti-right view means imposing the continuation of life on a person without their consent. This is unjustifiable and wrong. As we know life always involves an element of suffering, to force the continuation of life means to impose a certain amount of suffering on a person. If anything is wrong, this must be it.

    Note that I did not make any distinction of age or medical state here, because it is not relevant at all. Nothing in my arguments indicates that age or medical state has any relevance whatsoever. It is wrong to impose the continuation of life on a child or an adult, on a healthy person or a terminally ill person, on a person of sound mind or a person of unsound mind. Granted, whether a person of unsound mind can be said to meaningfully consent is a different matter, but as long as pre-written consent is given there shouldn’t be a problem, like how do not resuscitate orders and advance directives are not inherently problematic.

    We may evaluate that a given person’s expected future is “good enough” for them to continue living, but our own personal evaluation is not relevant to another person’s decision. We can’t meaningfully make such an evaluation as anything but a personal opinion, so it’s irrelevant to whether another person should be allowed to commit suicide or not.

    Let me make myself clear, so I am understood fully: if a person who is completely healthy and of sound mind declares the intent to die, they should be allowed to die, no questions asked. Age is not relevant, health is not relevant, expected future is not relevant, mental state is not relevant. Death should be provided to anyone who desires it.

    One may reply that, while they agree in theory with my conclusion that anyone should be free to commit suicide, my position is callous because suicide is a bad thing on the whole, and that we should be trying to dissuade people from killing themselves, not help them to kill themselves.

    But this sort of moderate position is based on an incommensurate belief in human life as a positive thing. At least the anti-right position is shameless in its authoritarianism and, while professing to be “pro-life,” clearly has no respect for life. In that respect, the moderate position doesn’t really make any sense. How is human life so great that a supposedly rational calculation proves that we should feel justified to force it on other people?

    Not only that, but many believe that human life is so valuable that forcing it on people is good for all expected futures except a future of constant, unwavering suffering. This is such an extreme position that it’s hard to believe that it’s actually the mainstream position. When we spit on people’s desperation and freedom in the name of “life,” you know that we truly are fanatics for the cult of life in this society. Like any other form of violent mindless fanaticism, it truly sickens me.

    I have already pointed out that it is impossible for any person to rationally conclude that anyone else’s suicide was a mistake. We are bombarded with propaganda trying to indoctrinate us with the opposite belief: “suicide is selfish” (as if other people have a claim to our continued existence), “suicide is the coward’s way out” (see my “losing team” point below), “suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem” (not all the problems being solved are temporary), “choose life” (why?), and such pap. All of these propaganda slogans are meant to obscure the fundamental fact that suicide puts the person’s death in their own hands.

    Here is Bill Zeller’s suicide letter:

    >”People say suicide is selfish. I think it’s selfish to ask people to continue living painful and miserable lives, just so you possibly won’t feel sad for a week or two. Suicide may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem, but it’s also a permanent solution to a ~23 year-old problem that grows more intense and overwhelming every day”

    The cowardice propaganda, I think, is especially pushed. There is a strong correlation, I think, between this propaganda and the objection that antinatalism puts us on the “losing team”; again there is this belief in life as a sports game and longevity as the points, and if you kill yourself you’re running away from the field because you just can’t take the heat.

    As for “choosing life,” they don’t really want you to “choose.” An actual choice would require viable options, but to my opponents there’s only one viable option, and that’s staying alive at all costs.

    Of course there is a sense in which this discussion, like the abortion discussion, is pointless: people will do it whether it’s justified or not. But, as for abortion, suicide often requires the assistance of at least one other person. And making an act ethically unjustified or illegal does severely lower the availability of such assistance (just as the fanatical belief that abortion is unjustified severely lowers the availability of medical and pharmaceutical assistance). And that’s a real problem that causes suffering to real people. All these debates are really just rationalizations on whether we should force people to suffer or not. My answer is always gonna be “hell no.”

    I think the belief that suicide is good or bad will depend on one’s worldview. Liberalism cannot admit of the righteousness of suicide because it is predicated on unerring optimism about human abilities and the belief in constant progress. There is definitely a tension there between the belief in “self-ownership,” which logically entails the freedom to destroy oneself (but also to sell oneself, which liberals cannot accept either), and extreme optimism, which generates reluctant acceptance. We observe the same reluctance with abortion and the pro-choice position: “abortion is bad, but people should be free to do it, but we have to get people to stop doing it because it’s inherently bad.”

    I believe suicide is good because I hold no belief in human life as having any kind of special status or any optimism about human future (such as a belief in Heaven or a belief in inexorable social progress). It is good for people to be in control of their future, and to decide when it should end. It is not as much that suicide is good in itself (after all, we all die some day, and that fact is not good or bad in itself) as the fact that forbidding people to commit suicide is a fundamental wrong which makes suicide good by comparison.

    Anti-right advocates keep whining about human dignity, but suicide is the height of human dignity, and nothing is more of an vicious attack against human dignity than to force sick people to writhe in pain like mangy dogs. “Human dignity” is always the first rationalization of the authoritarian, but they don’t know what human dignity is any more than they know with freedom is.

    Anti-right advocates and moderates think there is a paradox between suicide as an act of freedom and the fact that suicide nullifies one’s freedom. But this paradox doesn’t seem to come into play when we consider, for example, the actions of suicide bombers, or the actions of people who put their lives at great risk for a cause. The reason why we don’t think suicide bombers are paradoxical is because the very term “suicide bomber” evokes the reason for the action, and it is this reason which provides the explanation for the self-destroying actions. But suicides also have reasons for doing what they do. As long as we keep a suicide in the abstract as an act of freedom, then we’re obscuring the motives, and the paradox appears relevant. When we look at the underlying reasons, then we are no longer confused: the matter can simply be expressed as the fact that there are values greater than life for the sake of living.

    Indeed, I think it is clear that we all hold some values greater than survival. If you ask people if they’d prefer to live 80 years in jail or 79 years of a charmed life, I’m pretty sure everyone will answer the latter. It will do no good to reply that such a choice represents the “suicide” of one year of life. Mere life is not worth that much, and we know it. No human being is contented by the simple fact of existing.

    One may further reply that it is not the freedom to commit suicide that they find undesirable, but the suicide itself. But this sort of objection makes no sense to me. Why would you like the freedom to do something you find undesirable? I don’t like the freedom to utter hate speech, but I also know it is absolutely necessary in order to have any freedom of speech at all (people who confuse their personal dislike with objective facts are the ones fucking up free speech for the rest of us).

    There is no more crucial freedom than to be free to decide when one is to die, and how. After all, suicide is really a person’s only escape, however bad life gets.

    There is really no utilitarian reason for any society to outlaw suicide except the desire to slap a fake optimistic front to some people’s misery. Suicide is one of those things that angers people because it is a signal that there’s something wrong with their society, much like how atheists subconsciously remind religious people that the indoctrination they suffered through was useless. To admit that a suicide is in the right is a blow against all the illusions and delusions we mount to prevent ourselves from thinking about death, and the delusion that we are perpetuating ourselves through our children, our family, our religion, our country, and so on. It is a rejection of the “sanctity of life” that underlies all religions and statist ideologies.

    • mokhtar says:

      very interesting points in your study ,i think to decide whether committing sucide is right or wrong then the answer is we do not know because this answer depends on another questions such as what happens after the suicidal die? is there any life after death ? if there is life after death does that mean one who committed the sucide will have a better life than that one he already lived on earth ?so as you see sucide question is depending on an unknown future aspects that if they are verified then we can judge on suicide righteous or otherwise

    • Anonymous says:

      Thanks for writing all this. I read the whole thing and found no comments. I appreciate that you laid out so much thoughtfulness on the subject, and your views seem to be very similar to mine, so… I guess I have nothing constructive to add, just felt you should have a response lol.

    • Anonymous says:

      Wow thanks for taking the time to write all that so that I could read it and contemplate it

    • L says:

      Thank you for expounding your thoughts. I have found it to be a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. I’m on this site at the moment as I am feeling hopeless. I’m not sure I want to cease living as I want to cease the pain of hopelessness. Your interesting discussion gave me a little sense of hope and possibility. So thank you

  213. David W says:

    Sorry, I wish I could edit my last post to comment on some of your legitimate concerns considering the position you are in as you may be asked to make this decision at some point. Of course this brings up a lot of issues for the doctors not only ethically and morally, but sadly even religious beliefs. That being said have you never had a patient or two who has had nothing but pure and utter suffering for decades with no relief from medications or therapy of any kind?

    In such extreme cases (like a lot of people replying on your site), wouldn’t your decision to allow them to end their life and finally find some kind of peace for once not be one that really doesn’t require a lot of deliberation on your part? I was going to use the word easy but that holds too much connotation and potentially confuse the intent of my question to you.

    Cheers

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      David,

      I appreciate this discussion and your willingness to try to understand my view as a mental health professional. To answer your question, the reality is that I actually haven’t had any clients who had “nothing but pure and utter suffering for decades with no relief from medications or therapy of any kind.” That’s not to say they don’t exist. Perhaps they do. I just haven’t met them.

      It makes me think of a favorite quote of mine from Graham Greene: “It is one of the strange discoveries a man can make that life, however you lead it, contains moments of exhilaration; there are always comparisons which can be made with worse times: even in danger and misery the pendulum swings.”

      I hesitate to include that quote, because I don’t mean to minimize, invalidate, or dismiss the genuine suffering of so many people out there. But I do think that even amid great suffering, the pendulum swings. People seldom if ever feel 100% miserable 100% of the time. There are fluctuations, and those fluctuations usually are what have kept them alive to this point.

      What I have observed, more in line with your question, is people who under the darkness of depression or other despair are unable to remember a time when they were not miserable. Their mind tricks them into thinking that they have relentlessly been miserable with no respite at all. Or they remember such times and think those were a fluke, a lie, a trick, or something else unreal. And then when their mood improves, their memories change, even if only a little.

      Again, I don’t mean to dispute the suffering of others. All it takes is the ability to read a newspaper (or, as you said, the comments on this site) to know that there’s too much suffering in this world. How I wish it weren’t so! Yet even suffering is constantly changing.

      Please understand that I’m not saying people should suffer or should “buck it up” and withstand their suffering. What I am saying, or at least trying to say, is that even abject suffering tends to have complexities that defy conversations such as ours.

      Thanks again for your contribution.

    • Anonymous says:

      Some relief from medications? Are you kidding me? Some relief from medication is why I should want to live? It’s relative isn’t it?

    • Suizou says:

      Suicide prevention is a form of violence.

  214. David W says:

    I think the essence of the problem here Stacey is that what you are asking for is impossible. You will never get this so called line you keep referring to. This isn’t something that can be measured like alcohol concentration in the blood.

    That why there are steps involved to determine if the person qualifies to have their life ended (see Sweden, Netherlands, Canada et al).

    It’s not like anyone is planning to open up a euthanasia drive through where anyone can just go and end their life without any sort of checks and balances in place.

    Frankly this really isn’t as intricate of of a problem as a some people make it out to be. You’ve read the stories shared on here (including my own). I can’t even fathom how anyone would be against euthanasia after reading what so many people are going through.

    And I really do hate to say it but your arguments are banal at the least. You are bringing up situations that are already being taken into consideration by those making this legislation. I know Canada will require two doctors to give approval to end ones life as an example.

    The time for questions are long over and the time for action is imperative.

    Ps: I’m not trying to be disrespectful, maybe just a bit frustrated at this point 🙂

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      David,

      I appreciate the points you raise. The Canada law applies only to cases of terminal illness, and even then several conditions must be met, per this website:

      “A person has a grievous and irremediable medical condition only if they meet all of the following criteria:
      (a) they have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability;
      (b) they are in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability;
      (c) that illness, disease or disability or that state of decline causes them enduring physical or psychological suffering that is intolerable to them and that cannot be relieved under conditions that they consider acceptable; and
      (d) their natural death has become reasonably foreseeable, taking into account all of their medical circumstances, without a prognosis necessarily having been made as to the specific length of time that they have remaining.”

      The line that I’m seeking isn’t philosophical or legal; it’s about when to try to prevent suicide in a person whose body is not failing. The difference might seem like splitting hairs, but in my case, I am bound by professional, ethical, and legal obligations to intervene when a person is at “imminent risk” of dying by suicide. (An exception will occur when our state implements the aid-in-dying law that was passed last week.) As a mental health professional, if I were to advocate for liberalizing this policy, I would need to be able to say for whom suicide should be allowed to occur without intervention, and I don’t know the answer to that, Switzerland and the Netherlands and similar countries notwithstanding.

      I didn’t find your comment disrespectful, and I thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

    • David W says:

      While that’s currently true of the Canadian law there are some caveats that must be mentioned. First and foremost it is not what the Supreme Court Of Canada’s decision was in regards to who could end their life. The Senate unfortunately made the law more restrictive. Thankfully the current law here is already being challenged (all of 10 days after the law was enacted) to bring it inline with what the Supreme Court originally declared.

      “The Supreme Court of Canada created an exception, after analyzing Canadian constitutional law in the case of Carter v. Canada (Attorney General), released at the beginning of February 2015. The Supreme Court declared that the prohibition in section 241(b) of the Criminal Code on assisting with suicide is unconstitutional to the extent that it prevents physician-assisted death for “a competent adult person who (1) clearly consents to the termination of life and (2) has a grievous and irremediable medical condition (including an illness, disease or disability) that causes enduring suffering that is intolerable to the individual in the circumstances of his or her condition.”

      As you can see there is no mention of imminent death (which is point B and D in your reply if I’m not mistaken). That was sadly added on later when the law was finally put in place. It also means it should hopefully be fairly easy to overturn the current law to ensure it follows the Supreme Courts decision on this topic.

      FYI the challenge is happening in British Columbia by Julia Lamb and the BCCLA

      Sorry for not posting links but my browser is not cooperating today.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Thanks for this information, David, about the Canadian situation. I will look up the information to learn more about it.

        As you know, some countries do permit assisted suicide or even euthanasia in the case of mental illness such as depression. My understanding is that suicide rates are not much higher in those areas, if at all, but I need to read the current literature.

        I actually think that permissive policies about suicide would save lives – that if people could know that they could die by suicide at any time without forced intervention, then they would be more willing to get professional help, or at least stick around to see if things change. But then I return to the same “where to draw the line?” vexation.

        A scenario in my mind is one of a mother whose adult child is intent on dying by suicide, holding a gun to their head, and by virtue of psychosis or substance intoxication not in a sound state of mind to make such a decision. She calls the police for help, and the police say, “Sorry, it’s their right to end their life. We can’t do anything to stop it.”

        Others might say, “Well, if it’s obvious the person’s not in a sound state of mind, then they should be stopped.” And then we fall into the same conundrum all over again: Who decides who’s in a sound state of mind? How is this evaluated without forcing the person into treatment for an evaluation about their state of mind? And so on….

    • Anonymous says:

      So wish such a drive in existed, though.

    • David W says:

      I couldn’t find a place to reply to your last post so hopefully this doesn’t screw up the timeline too much.

      I absolutely agree that just having the option of doctor assisted death could be enough to extend the lives of those wishing to die as there is the comfort of knowing there is a legal and legitimate way out when they finally make that choice.

      I think you may have taken my statement a bit too literally. While I’ve wanted to die for over 30 years now it doesn’t mean that I’ve never had a good day or two or have had hope that at some point in the future there may be some relief. I’m lucky to have maybe 5 days a year which I consider good days and one could say I’m in a good mood. But that I no way negates the fact that the time has come for my life to finally be over. I’ve fought for 30 years and have no fight left. Nor do I (or anyone else) deserve to live a life so miserable.

      I’m sorry but my biggest issues with your examples is that they are strawman arguments. None of these systems to allow for assisted dying include the ability to just shoot yourself if so desired. It’s a process involving medical professionals working with the person in question to determine if their situation warrants end of life. Not some free for all where anything goes. I’ll state it again, there will be checks and balances in place to determine feasibility.

      I can understand you and a lot of people (including myself) are concerned about what those checks and balances will end up being but I can’t see any example you’ve brought up that would pass any criteria that would be in place. Of course I may have missed some so excuse me if I’m incorrect.

      It’s akin to laws put in place for someone charged with murder for example. For the most part evidence is required and guilt beyond reasonable doubt is required to sentence someone to prison. Not to mention the degree of murder which needs to be established. Those are checks and balances to ensure (as much as possible) that the right people are charged and innocent people go free. Of course it’s not perfect but there is no such thing as a perfect system and that will include how this ends up turning out.

      They won’t be allowing someone who has been depressed for a week to be allowed assisted suicide. A lot stricter policies will be in place to prevent if not all, but most of the concerns you seem to have.

    • Danny says:

      David, Your choice of the word “banal” is excellent here. In my comment, I used the word ‘rhetoric”, but it basically boils down to meaning the same thing. It sounds like you and I are on the same page here, and judging by the looks of things, we are both Canadian as well..? I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

      The advice given here, despite being well-intentioned, is banal rhetoric. End of story. Most cases of anti-suicide counselling usually falls under that category, because the therapist can’t put themselves in our exact circumstances, and they CERTAINLY cannot put themselves in your body where you feel all the emotional and physical pain. That is why psychotherapy often fails here. We rely on that fallacious assumption.

      One thing I can’t help but notice about the physician-assisted euthanasia “requirements” is that it only allows people who have “terminal” illness. Well, what about people who have NON-FATAL, incurable, long-standing, chronic illnesses/disorders that are NOT helped by traditional therapies? These are the ones who are exempt from consideration, even though they can feel imprisoned in their own bodies. In cases such as these (of which I personally fall into), I have to reduce myself to accepting some other human (1 or 2 doctors) telling me that I shouldn’t have the right to die because I’m not suffering that badly, in their eyes? That’s horseshit no matter how you cut it.

      I’ve become very angry, bitter and cynical over this because it seems like terminal patients are the only ones allowed to be considered since they will be passing away shortly anyway. People with non-fatal disorders can be “treated” with expensive medications that incur MORE side effects which require even MORE expensive drugs, and while this is happening they still pay the monthly bills and pay their monthly taxes. That’s what the agenda seems to be here…….MONEY.

      This whole world is backwards and the legislation that is passed forces people to jump through an exceedingly large number of hoops in hope of an escape from their pain, while leaving out others completely. To me, this is not only inhumane but it’s criminal as well. Nobody asked us if we wanted to be brought into this world, and now we’re told that we can’t leave. BULL….SHIT.

  215. PJ says:

    Absolutely agree with Chad N. that you have a logical fallacy in your argument, Ms. Freedenthal. Suicide can be wrong in some cases, yet the correct thing to do in others. When a person has a temporary condition or reduced ability to make choices (such as a child), suicide is inappropriate. But where a person has wanted suicide for many years and has one or more health issues that preclude living a “normal” life, suicide may be appropriate.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      PJ and Chad N,

      I can understand that my comments seem like a “logical fallacy” in my “argument.” I’m afraid I didn’t make myself clear in my original response to Bob. I’m actually not trying to make an argument. I am truly curious about where to draw the line between suicide that should be stopped and suicide that should be allowed to continue without intervention. I do not know the answer.

      Here in Colorado, where I live, we just approved a bill allowing for physician aid in dying, also called by many people “assisted suicide.” I support that law. Someone in the final months of life should have the ability to control when and how they go. But to me, there’s a huge gulf between people at that extreme end of the spectrum and those at the other end, like the child or person delirious with fever who I invoked in my original comment. And if we were to assume that people have the right to end their life in some cases, I struggle with where to draw that line between when it’s a right and when it’s a problem. So my question, “Where do you draw the line?” comes from true curiosity, not a desire to argue or philosophize.

      Chad offered a thoughtful proposal for how that question can be answered on an individual basis. Yet the question of where to draw the line still remains, whether it’s us discussing it on this website or a group of people trying to answer the question in some type of hearing.

    • James R Gorsh says:

      That’s right. Stacey’s perception is not based on knowing and feeling what it is like.

    • Sune says:

      I’ve wanted to die for over 20 years, but I have no terminal health issues to qualify for assisted death. I smoke, hoping I’ll get cancer so a Dr. will put me out of my misery. I wish for a semi to barrel into me on the freeway.

      Anything so that I’m not having to resort to downing a bottle of pills, possibly puking my guts everywhere, and then living through it…having to face family and mental Dr’s. Again.

  216. x says:

    trigger warning

    what if you have been abused your whole life by various people, family and non-family, have had people who considered themselves your “friend” violently rape you and threaten to kill you when they know you are suicidal and then encourage you to commit suicide, have extremely severe ptsd because of it, have gone to years of therapy, and new people in your life always end up abusing you as well because they take advantage of your vulnerability. i have been suicidal for most of my life, since i was 7 fucking years old. tell me it’s a temporary problem. tell me i’ll change my mind. and don’t you dare victim blame me for the things that have happened to me.

    • Nikki says:

      You have to wait for that one person to change everything.. Waiting your whole life is worth it. Try to get positive, just keep living.

    • PJ says:

      Nikki, are you joking?? The idea that there is always one person out there who can change our lives is a big problem. It just isn’t true.

  217. PJ says:

    I think you are right in most situations. But there are a lot of exceptions. If a person takes time to adjust to a bad situation and still wants to die, shouldn’t they becable to? Also, your argument revolves around change. What if a person has wanted to die for 10 years? Or 20 years?

  218. N/A N/A says:

    Very patronizing article.

  219. Krystal says:

    I’ve had four suicide attempts, the last one being six months ago, the day after my mum died.I was in very rough shape, I was intubated and unresponsive for an entire day.The only reason I haven’t tried again is because I have children.But with my mum gone, they are all I have now.Most of my remaining family members didn’t even come to the hospital when I overdosed.I have no friends anymore.My mum is gone, and I might as well have died with her.Im alive because I don’t want to do any more damage to my kids.But I don’t want to be here anymore.Its like being tortured every single day of my life.I absolutely think that it should be an individuals choice, if they can’t take the pain anymore.

  220. Amy LifeStar says:

    Well, it all depends on the nature of the situation(s), especially the “Life situations” in relation to the person who desired to die! For instance, it would be completely Merciless and Unethical for us to allow someone’s Merciless sufferings (i.e. physical/functional sufferings or other kinds of sufferings, especially the ones that arose from the hands and actions of others) to “Capture this Person’s Life Forever until Death” when all favorable and desirable options have been “closed-off” for this person!

    Nevertheless, even when this person could change his/her mindset or viewpoint about the very things that tormented him/her in life, it is never a guarantee that the “Life Conditions would and could Change for the better!” Moreover, the Soul of a person Cannot change; shall not change (and definitely shall Not be Forced to Change by Society, etc.); and Does Not Need to change—in terms of viewing, sensing, and touching the true nature of his/her life conditions—with its own Natural Soul Imprints because the Soul is Honest, True, and Courageous in Needing to do the very things (including ending its own merciless sufferings by not existing) in accord with what it “authentically sensed and undergone throughout life: days after days; months after months; and years after years!” In this respect, we shall not and ought not to Mercilessly Stop a person from Exiting a tormented/wounded life because this person’s life had either never begun or became so twisted, convoluted, and mutated in all aspects for so long and too long— despite this person’s constant attempts to make it better; make it fuller; and make it richer for its own sake! But Life and people in society simply would show “No Mercy and No Empathy to this Person’s Sufferings, Torments, and Wounds!” .

    In addition, it is such a popular and wide practice for psychological professionals to think or believe that a person ought to and need to find ways to cope with his/her Life Conditions or problems as if this person is so weak in not knowing how to deal with its own problems; when in fact “Life Conditions” per se is never constituted as a person’s problems, it is the (Harmful) Events that Infused and Inflicted upon a person’s Life by the hands and actions of Harm-doers. The truth is the very nature of coping of any kind of torments or wounds inflicted upon us is simply Tormenting: whether the core wounds/torments are residing in our body, body functions, psyche, etc. What we truly desired and ought to desire is to “Liberate ourselves and our Souls from the Torments and Wounds in anyway and all ways that we could—given IF the conditions and people in our environment allowed us to do so!” However, many of us do not have the freedom and liberty to be in such favorable and flourishing environment, which therefore made the Life conditions much more prevalent and unbearable.

    Of course we do not want to hasting death, but then again, when a Person’s Life Conditions’ Sufferings have Totally Outweighed and Taken Over the Vibrancy, Beauty, Wisdom, Order, Honor, and Harmony of Life, is there still a Life for this person! Therefore, it is also Merciless for Society to use the statement that “a person ended its own life: aka, committed suicide or desired to commit suicide”—when in fact this person is/was being courageous enough to do the hardest and bravest thing that it has/had ever done on earth by ending its own sufferings/torments/wounds through Exiting because of what and how Life had put this person through: year after year!

    Moreover, not everyone whom ended their own sufferings by exiting Planet Earth has a “mental illness” or other terminologies that many so-called psychologists/psychiatrists have been prevalently used to against a person’s well-being; when in fact such “labeling immediately and automatically demeans a person’s character and undermines his/her Life Conditions” that evidently, prevalently, and Mercilessly Misconstrued and Distorted the Essence of Soul Health or Soul Imprints” for as long as the invention of mainstream Psychology—although it might be true that some have died/exited did have some sort of psychological dysfunctions or malfunctions due various reasons and factors.

    One final note, to see and desire less human beings that will exit from Planet Earth by having to end their own Endless Sufferings and Torments, then, “Simply Being Merciful, Empathetic, and Kind (means To Do No Harms) to these beings—when their Souls (Psyches) and/or Bodies are and have been Tormented and Wounded for so Long!” This practice by far is the Wise and Authentic Answer to Stop a person from exiting Planet Earth; and no medications or psychological treatments would and could compare to this Critical, Authentic, and Sacred Approach to Stop a Person from undergoing Merciless Sufferings, Torments, and Wounds whether the wounds Manifested Physically, Functionally, or Soulfully or in all Three Compartments!

    —By Amy LifeStar, HD & Ethicist

  221. David W says:

    I’ll try to keep this short. I’m 44 now and for 30+ years I’ve lived with med resistant depression and sleeping disorders. Not to mention neck and back pain that in the last few years has become permanent and unrelenting.

    The sleeping issues meant I could never complete even high school. I’m sure depression exacerbated things a fair amount.

    I’ve never been able to keep a job for longer than 2 months due to not getting restorative sleep and eventually always sleeping though my alarms (I’d have 6 set plus another in another room).

    From depression to the 3 sleeping disorders and now chronic pain there is no reason to keep living. I’m single, no kids and I’ve lost the ability to even work.

    I’m a smart person and could have accomplished anything which kills the psyche that much more. I can’t take the pain anymore, I can’t take the exhaustion anymore, and I can’t take the loneliness anymore.

    This is no life for anyone to live and frankly no life at all. How can we as a society consider this acceptable in any manner whatsoever. There should be doctors lining up at my (and others in my position) doorstep offering me an end to this unbearable pain. Is that not the oath they signed? Is that not what being a caring human is all about.

    Funny how we care so much about our animals that we have the compassion to euthanize them when the time is right but God forbid we extend this to our fellow man/woman.

    • Nicolette says:

      If you want to talk you can email me at 0musicmind@gmail.com

    • Jeanette says:

      I have a comment and question about intellectual ability, mental slowness and low self esteem.

      Let me clarify what I mean by ‘intellectually slow person’. Obviously I am not referring to the person who meets the criteria for an Intellectual Disability (also called mental retardation)…. I am talking about the person who has the ability to learn necessary academic skills, but at a rate and depth BELOW AVERAGE same age peers. In order to grasp new concepts, this person needs more time, more repetition, and often more resources from teachers to be successful. Typically, this person has great difficulty with new and complex reasoning which makes new concepts difficult to learn.

      These slow learners are prone to much anxiety and low self image which goes unnoticed by many in society. They often feel ‘stupid’ and begin hating school at an early age. Day-to-day academic life can be very draining and yet many somehow manage to make it through the system and through high school (in the United States).

      The psychologist and intelligence researcher Linda Gottfredson wrote a good piece titled Why g Matters: The Complexity of Everyday Life. An excerpt:

      “Life is replete with uncertainty, change, confusion, and misinformation, sometimes minor and at times massive. From birth to death, life continually requires us to master abstractions, solve problems, draw inferences, and make judgments on the basis of inadequate information. Such demands may be especially intense in school, but they hardly cease when one walks out the school door…”

      Question:

      Can you sympathize with a person who says that one of their major reasons for contemplating suicide often (besides exhaustion) is that they just don’t feel competent to handle the mental demands of life?

  222. Anonymous says:

    No. I don’t think ALL problems are temporary. For instance, a chronic illness with no cure is not temporary and can cause unnecessary suffering for your entire life.

  223. Ayla-jess says:

    What if you have already tried killing ur self and have been in that low point but ur mind set is still the same and u still have the same old goal of wanting to disappear and not return.. I’ve tried I have a pretty successful job and everything else in between but I didn’t ask for this life but Take it how ever u want, me being selfish or what ever but I no longer look forward to the future or anything good because I deserve what ever pain come my way I’m not a nice person and how do U say to some one who’s tried before and not just once either, to stay strong it’ll all get better it’ll all work out in the end. When they’ve made up their mind and it’s set.. No changing my mind. Please tell me why ?

  224. Scott says:

    I’ve had back pain and degenerative disc disease for about 10 years that has increased over time. I also have chronic fatigue and stomach pain and symptoms that make it very uncomfortable to go into public/work. Its a nightmare, I have rectal leakage that smells awful. I’ve sought and received various medical treatments for these things but nothing seems to help much, I’m not a candidate for surgery. Everyday I wake up thinking “oh hell, here I go again” and my back usually feels like a brick and many days I have nausea/migraines and my arm and hand are numb on the opposite side I’m laying. My body is breaking down and I’m 36. Not to mention I’ve had bacterial meningitis/hydrocephalus and have a shunt. I have a sharp pain from nerve damage caused by my last shunt surgery in 2009, which also makes the left side of my face numb many days. The idea of enduring this for another 30+ years scares the hell out of me. Any terminal illness would be a HUGE relief but that probably wont happen. All I can think of is a way to get relief and peace. I think I’m mentally tough but I think I’m at my limit.

  225. Anonymous says:

    22 Veterans kill themselves everyday. Every day i hear 21 voices calling me home. I’ve failed in my life after my time in the service. I was forgotten, tormented, and abused by the VA, my community, my friends and most of my family. I lived in solitude without the basic amenities for 5 years. I lived without health care for 10 years. I’ve been suffering for 15 years. I’ve attempted suicide three times, only regretting my failure each time. I’m tired of suffering. I’m tired of the depression. I’m tired of pharmaceutical cocktails that make the voices worse. I’m tired. I know death is near. I can feel the cold breath of nothingness on my soul. No veteran, no one, should be forced to live in torment. Yet suicide is demonized by society. They call it a permanent solution to a temporary problem; but when the problem persists for years or decades “thier” solutions are no longer viable. No one is getting out of this world alive; why should i suffer today until the enevitible death that claims us all? I am ready for eternal rest. If only assisted suicide was legal. I

    . i’ .

  226. Serapio says:

    Death IS inevitable and most often unplanned and out of anybody’s control. To die is to permanently stop the existence of life. Whether by accident, incident, murder or assassination, war, or one’s own hand is really irrelevant in the end. A person realizing they have made a mistake after jumping off the Golden Gate bridge can easily translate into, “i am not ready to go”. But, is it not possible that the murder victim or accident victim could have the very same “reluctance”? I do really believe that no one wants to give up the gift of life. I also believe that going on through life may not be the best thing, and not only for the main individual, but for the sake of others as well. After all, when a criminal sentenced to die is executed, aren’t “family” of the victim allowed to view for their own personal satisfaction? Because, they WANT the guilty criminal to die and they want to SEE the execution! AND, the law fulfills the ending of that life in that manner. BTW, “murder” conviction in the 1st degree or 2d degree, or whatever “degree” probably does NOT matter to the dead victim. A statement in the bible says that if a lion kills a man, that lion should be put to death. That statement does not bring in to question the “intent” or the “manner” or the “state of mind” of the lion.
    Yes. Death is final and YES, IT COMES TO ALL.

  227. Lena says:

    I have bipolar disorder. There is no cure. Medications don’t help. They make me sick and take away what little of me I like. Therapy doesn’t help. Nothing is helpful. To be told it will get better is a lie. To have people prolong my misery of living with this condition is unacceptable. We call it humane to put down our beloved pets when their quality of life is bad. My quality of life is bad. I will never have better quality of life. Even if in mania things feel wonderful, the madness is always there. It’s sad I can’t have that choice by law. That I can’t do it safely and painlessly. That to end my misery I have to do so violently and hidden, like a criminal.

  228. Bob says:

    I agree life is fluid. This plays out in a multitude of ways – to quote John Lennon – life is what happens to you while you make other plans.

    However given this, and that EVERYTHING about life is fluid, using this argument as an excuse to stop someone who genuinely wants to end their life, regardless of circumstance, is wrong. People make snap decisions, people carefully plan out their next move – it doesn’t matter. Your life is yours – your body is yours. Your experiences – pain, joy, sorrow, happiness are all yours. No one else should have the right to dictate what you do to your body, and if dying by your own means in your own way is your choice, then that should be respected regardless of others views on the matter.

    Sure there are people who may well regret their decision to end it – not that those who are successful at it can be asked their view once they have died. But I believe if you genuinely try, regardless of success that was your decision and should be respected as your choice. If people want help they will seek it – it shouldn’t be foisted on them, nor should they be locked up to stop them from doing something they genuinely want to do for themselves.

    I will clarify that the above relates to you wanting to take your own life. Not someone else’s. And, if you care for others who cannot care for themselves then it is the hallmark of decency to consider those you are leaving behind. But ultimately it IS about you. Life is inherently selfish, and the arguments of people making it out as being so are also selfish in stopping you due to this moral argument – they would rather keep you here over their own selfish views opposed to respecting your choice.

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      Bob,

      You make excellent points. Many of the comments on this site have challenged my ideas and caused me to stretch my thinking. A problem that I run into intellectually is, would everything you say above still apply if the person is a child? How about if the person is an adult with 106 degrees fever who, in fever-induced delirium, wants to end their life, even though we can reasonably assume that when their delirium is treated they will return to their baseline mood (which, for the sake of this example, did not include suicidal wishes). And if you allow that these both are reasonable exceptions to your argument, then where does one draw the line? That is, if suicidal drives appear to be fueled by temporary despair (like a fever), then should the person be prevented from taking his or her life? My own sense is, yes, the person should be stopped. But that’s no surprise, I’m sure, given my stance on preventing suicide. I’m curious about your views, as well as the views of others who believe suicide is a person’s right.

    • Bob says:

      Hi Stacey

      I’ll admit there is possibly a philosophical debate here which can always translate down harder to individual circumstances.

      In your post you pose the issues of a child, or, of a person temporarily ill. Perhaps applying this more widely, do we as a society intervene where we make an assessment (valid or not) that the person making such a choice isn’t right in their mind, or in a state to make such a monumental decision as to end their life?

      The answer in my opinion to this, is i genuinely do not know. But what I do know/feel, is that to decide on someone’s behalf what is right for them, or to start forcibly making such decisions, is a slippery slope. There is no objective decision making in life as it is all coloured by our individual experiences or views – and this plays out in all aspects of the human condition. We sugar-coat the notion of objectivity, but underlying all decisions are an element of FEELING. From those who advocate right to life, all the way through to right to die.

      I agree it is sad when a person dies – and no one should be differentiating between intentional or non, even if they have had a good innings or not.

      But it’s not my place to judge nor influence as it wasn’t my time here – it was theirs.

      • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

        Bob,

        Thank you for your thoughtful response to my question. I think we’re actually saying the same thing, just from different ends of the spectrum. It seems like you’re saying it’s hard to draw the line about when suicide is wrong. I’m saying it’s hard to draw the line about when suicide is a right.

        Your last line is very thought provoking. “It wasn’t my time here – it was theirs.” I can tell you with absolute certainty that there are people who, once their suicidal crisis or longstanding suicidal feelings resolve, are glad to have yet more time here. So, intervening with those people still honors that it is their time, in the same way that administering medical treatment to someone shot in a robbery serves their interests. (That’s just one example.) We don’t know who will be grateful to be alive in a year or many years’ time, although we do know that the vast majority of people who survive a suicide attempt decide afterward to stay alive.

        I stand firmly on the side of suicide prevention, except in cases of terminal illness when a physician could prescribe a medication that would make death less frightening and painful for the dying person. Yet as I said in my original reply to your comment, the comments on this site have stretched my thinking. I do wonder if there are times that mental pain should be considered the same as terminal illness. And then I go back to how many people recover from such intense mental pain and are grateful to be alive (or at least no longer want to die), and I feel a responsibility to err on the side of safety. And then I read another sound comment about the other side of the argument … and then I am back to my original question of where do we draw the line.

    • Chad N. says:

      This is actually directed to Ms. Freedenthal. You are trying to apply a logical fallacy to this discussion in that because you can find a possible exception to Bob’s individual choice argument invalidates the argument. If you flip the argument and say you have an elderly patient that has expressed their entire life that they wished to be euthanized rather than fade away due to alzheimer’s for example. Then as the disease sets in they have lucid periods of dementia in which they can’t even remember their own name let alone their disease and therefore don’t express a desire to die. Does this now temporary condition invalidate their life long position so that when the dementia fades you would have them informed they no longer have the right to choose? If you allow that exception then where do you draw the line? This is the logical flaw lies. There is no convenient line to draw. This is messy and hard every time. That’s why it’s so difficult for society, people only want easy answers.

      We are talking about a more than infinitely complex system. Each individual is different and even if they weren’t each individual’s circumstance is different. The situations must be judged on a case by case basis with deliberation every time. That’s the answer. It will likely not be pleasant often and always weigh on the minds of all involved from then on but that doesn’t mean we as a society should pretend it’s not worth doing.

      My current idea on how to handle this situation is simple. Use the same method that we currently use to determine legality of society ending a life. Stand up a jury system with a side to argue both for and against the requester truly wanting this. Given it’s not a criminal trial the process could be streamlined so you come in, hear both sides of the case and deliberate ending with an anonymous vote. Take the decision from the individual doctor or lawyer and give it to the people. Let them decide to grant permission, refuse it or delay their decision and come back to it on at agreed time. My only concern is that our society is not mature enough to ask what’s the right answer for another instead of trying to force the right answer for ourselves onto others. The difference between “what would I want in this situation” and “what do they want in this situation” seems confusing to most people but I think we can learn.

      I myself hope to die as soon as possible. Natural causes would be great but unlikely so I’m trying to figure out euthanasia. That’s what’s right for me in my mind but I know it’s not right for everyone. If I can figure out that difference I have faith that others can as well.

  229. Karen says:

    The only reason I’m here is because I can’t stand to inflict pain on others. “Life can change…it can get better!” Hasn’t in 30 years. It has been less bad. It has been tolerable. And yet always so blinking exhausting. I’m not even one of those folks that hate themselves. I have a lovely support network, nice friends, great family, I am well off. And yet it is so pointless. And there is so much busy work. And I’ve seen it all before. I’ve seen all the marvellous people who inspire me before. Inspire me for what? The human race is, on the whole, a pack of macaques, throwing poop at each other and blustering in their ignorance. Yes I love my individual people and I will stay to not cause them distress, but it doesn’t stop me from hoping for a stray lightening bolt or a quick and dirty heart attack.

  230. Nicola says:

    I think about dying every day I’ve tried pills and hanging myself but unfortunately I’ve failed for one reason or another, I should be able to go to my GP and have assistance with ending my life.

    • pained says:

      is there something that makes you feel this

    • satvik m says:

      Don’t die.

    • kathy says:

      Absolutely do not!!! My SO hung himself 1 year ago.You are beautiful! You leave with all the problems and learn the solutions were here. He is miserable he lets me know. Do your homework on what really happens to those who take their lives never mind the TORMENT we are left with.Stay for yourself.

  231. Anonymous says:

    I’ve always been scared to die, because of the uncertainty if what’s next, but I truly do not have a life worth living. It is full of nothing but pain and hopelessness. I have failed at everything in my life, marriage, motherhood, finances, everything. Perhaps doctor assisted suicide would be best. If only it was accessible everywhere to everyone.

    • Anonymous says:

      yes only over a review period of say two years especially if you dont believe in no marriage in afterlife like christians believe or any belief at least muslims have that right and im not muslim. jesus said in bible no marriage in heaven. what a horrible thought this book has been changed throughout time. when will we ever if ever have our own choice on how we look or live. many planets apparently out there dont let anybody take your dreams away from you now or never

    • Puck says:

      Very few are good at most things in life. Find some friends you can get along with well and do somethings let loose see what happens.
      Toxic parents are at the root of many personal problems, and it affects our relationships with others. Find a guy that likes you and does not want to change you in ways other than get you to have fun.

    • Misery says:

      I truly feel your pain. If I didn’t know better, I would have thought I wrote your above post as my own. I have zero purpose in life and only seem to ruin the lives of the ones I care most about. I just don’t understand why I’m still here. Good people with promising lives and purpose, even innocent children die every day, but I’m still here wasting space. I just don’t get it.

    • Anonymous says:

      This is me 100%

    • Anonymous says:

      What you said is me exactly except I’m not afraid to die. We go on because our soul does not die and we just go to the next life and anything we left unfinished we come back to work through again.

  232. pained says:

    hi since my spinal fusion for a disease in my spine that broke my back I have lived in absolute pain. everyday. I have an extremely awesome wife and 4 beautiful children ages 1 – 13. it brings me to tears to know that I won’t be around 1 day to see all their accomplishments but the pain has never stopped. I work full time as an assistant manager at a retail setting overnights. the work is heavy but it doesn’t matter if I’m at home or work the pain increases as the day does. for a few years I have contemplated the effects that my loved ones will endure. but I also think of the pain and heartbreak they endure now and none of them know the full extent of how bad it really is. but suicide is not something I have taken lightly. I’ve started to write my kids letters to help easy the pain they will feel and nothing would make my wife understand at all. but as the days goes by I get closer to the time when I must have everything ready cause I feel it inside my body the pain growing. and I’m not sure if it’s weeks or another year but I feel it is only when not if

    • Puck says:

      I understand how you feel, and your pain along with the pain I also feel everyday and many others as well. I see it as those who make rules on medications live a life where they can freely hurt and kill people along with their families without any consequences in this world. Things such as this make me and many others realize that we are not just living in the shadow of death, but it must be hell as if there were and afterlife it could not ne as bad as here. Many hurt and kill others by their actions and it is perfectly legal because they work for the government. Same can be said for all countries. We as people created government, and it is the most oppressive and leads to more death and suffering than anything else that we have created. All the privately held arms in the world could never kill as many as governments have in the last century. It is all about control… No surprise that for the most part people with psychopathic tendencies get into office all around the world more so than not. Merkel has been responsible for letting people into germany unchecked and they set fires, rape, rob, etc. Few of us are surprised by this because why else would we also have difficulty getting needed relief from pain, because of those that promote suffering un the world. What happened to to days that such people were often taken to the invention of a French doctor, and Louis 16th and many other such people that caused harm lost their heads.
      My friend please do come up with some ideas to solve the problems as some have with legal medical pot. All medications should be legal, and you and many other would not be suffering, and could die a natural death, not one from OD or some other misfortune to just end your suffering. Move to Oregon or california or another state. Somewhere you can get medications to enjoy life again.

  233. Common Sense says:

    Eventually death takes us all, it is inevitable and unavoidable. People treat death as something to be feared instead of something that is simply a part of life. No one lives forever and to do so would be the mental equivalent of dying a thousand deaths over and over again. You will die. It should be up to the individual to choose when. Whether it is sooner or later.

    • Charlotte says:

      I am with you Common Sense. In the progressive town where I live there is a big “Death and Dying” conversation going on and every week community organizations giving lectures on death and dying….the one true common denominator every single person on the planet shares…yet no one wants to discuss it.

      I worked in the hospice industry for awhile and witnessed on a daily basis patients being discharged from hospitals to hospice care 1-2 weeks and sometimes just days before they died.

      In just about every scenario I witnessed, the doctor, families and the patient all seemed to have been 1) uninformed or in denial of the loved ones terminal illness; 2) the patient was being treated up until the very end by drugs that were not curing their terminal illness and they were suffering with horrible side effects; 3) the patient and family member never had a conversation with their doctor about going into hospice (patients can be referred to hospice up to 6 months prior to a projected end of life prognosis); 4) patients and family members being “shocked” and “heartbroken” and “angry” when their loved one ends up in an emergency room near the end of their life only to be discharged to hospice the next day where they watched their loved one slip away in disbelief.

      My personal experiences as a funeral director’s daughter growing up in a funeral home, my career providing direct patient care in healthcare for decades treating terminally ill patients, and my experience working in hospice have all validated my belief that each and everyone one of us has the right to plan and execute their own death and to discuss their plan with the friends and families. And they should be able to do that without judgement or shame from any one. Generally speaking, as a culture we need to be speaking about death and dying more openly moving forward.

      I support assisted suicide not only for the terminally ill but for any human being who is suffering in any way and there is no recourse for improvement. When walking through a nursing home, or assisted living or even a high end senior living or memory care facility, I do not see people who are thriving nor are they happy. They have been put in these places because society does not value them anymore, they are sick or poor or can’t live alone anymore so their families want to get them settled somewhere so they can stop having to worry about them (we are one of the few cultures in the world who do not revere our elders nor do we personally care for them and keep them integrated into our communities) and so we “find them a home”.

      When I see vets out on the street corners begging for food or money and they are alone and covered in rags and most likely suffering from a mental or physical illness I believe in assisted suicide: when a person confined to a wheel chair for life who confides in me that they would rather die and meet their maker than continue to be a burden on family and friends and be confined to a life they do not want, I believe in assisted suicide: when people are suffering from depression, bipolar disorders or any other number of mental and emotional illnesses that severely impact their lives in a negative and non productive manner I believe in assisted suicide: when an elder, or anybody for that matter, finds themselves alone, with no family and friends, with no financial resources, no home, no access to affordable health care and no one who loves them or cares for them or has the time to help them, and especially if these people live in America where there are no resources to truly help them and improve their life, I believe in assisted suicide.

      Assisted suicide is humane. When I think of all the people every year around the globe who attempt or have succeeded in killing themselves in inhumane ways by gunshot, hangings, drug overdoses, slitting of the wrists, bathtub drownings or jumping out of windows or off bridges, I am for assisted suicide. If people have made the decision that they cannot go on any longer they should have the option of a dignified and medically induced death. Not everyone in America is living the dream. Not everyone in America is loved or cared for. Not everyone in America can afford to live in a home and have enough to eat. Not everyone in America has someone to depend on or take them in during the tough times. Not everyone in America is healthy and strong. For some people in America, life is to be endured and these people suffer relentlessly every day of their lives. For some people in America death is what will bring peace.

      With the baby boomers aging out over the next 10-15 years I do believe more and more of that demographic will consider assisted suicide if they find themselves alone, poor, or living with a chronic or terminal illness.

      I remember reading a book of short stories by Kurt Vonnegut book (Science Fiction) called “Welcome to the Monkey House” One of the stories was about your “expiration day”. The planet had become so crowded and science and medicine was so advanced keeping people alive much longer than they should be, the government implemented a death lottery so to speak. If you were over a certain senior age you would get a lottery ticket in the mail that designated your termination date. It was just like a birth announcement but it was your death announcement instead.

      Society accepted it, death was out in the open and discussed with your families and friends. It was a planned event and on your termination date you met all your friends and family at a restaurant for your last dinner all together and then you were escorted to your death by way of lethal injection. Even to my 13 year old mind, this seemed the most humane way to perish. I for one do not want to leave my death to chance. If we are all dying I want to be in control of my death. And nobody should judge it or argue it or try to stop a person from planning their death. Yes there needs to be a standard of assessment certainly but I do believe we are moving toward a similar model of death and dying as the author Kurt Vonnegut foresaw half a century ago.

      I think nearly everything a science fiction author writes about comes true.

  234. Samantha T says:

    I know I will die at my own hands eventually. I’ve attempted several times, but unsuccessfully. I’m bipolar, and I’m miserable. I’m on meds that help some, but it’s a never ending battle. I get so exhausted riding this emotional rollercoaster. Physician assisted suicide should be legal!!

  235. chris s says:

    death should be welcomed not prevented. even in cases of said “mental illnesses” it should be left up to the individual ONLY. its the individual’s life not anyone else’s. since when did mankind change their minds to say someone else can make choices for another as if the other person’s life is their own?

    • Tom Hal says:

      “since when did mankind change their minds to say someone else can make choices for another as if the other person’s life is their own?” HEAR, HEAR!

  236. Anonymous says:

    I hate myself. I hate everything about me. But I have a child I love more. So, I can’t be suicidal. I hope sometimes an accident will take me. Sometimes I hope love will take me.

  237. Anonymous says:

    I was suicidal when I was 3. A boy was playing too rough and I couldn’t breathe and I panicked. After that, and got a little bit older I tried to hold my breath for death. Then I imagined what a butter knife could do. I was very little and not sexually abused. I have extremely young memories. So I know my self hatred wasn’t caused by abuse. So, why do I hate myself so much? I think if I stop wanting anything, nothing matters.

  238. Anonymous says:

    I have given up. Life is not worth living. Death is on my mind frequently, and I wish to build up the courage to finally end my miserable existence. I never asked to be born on this earth. To experience pain and suffering daily… I can’t handle it anymore. I want out.

    • Anonymous says:

      To read your words, makes me sad–not pity but sad. I’m sorry to hear you are in pain. As a religious person that I am, I pray that you will find your peace and joy.

    • Puck says:

      First of all none of us asked to be born into this world. Also Buddha said that life is suffering that is one of the many noble truths. You have to choose as each of us do, what do you find interesting and seek it out. Sitting in front of a tv is one of the worst things that people can do. It is filled with programming to make people feel bad about themselves. Is the idea that you would be a better person if you buy their garbage. Seek out things away from tv and magazines. Have you thought about being a goth?

    • Andrew says:

      I know the feeling but each new day offers something new and a new positive potential for your life even if it is really really small to begin with. The world is a cruel mistress but each day you can pull yourself from miserable existence into a meaningful life day by day. I am not fully there yet but I know the darkest hours of my life I am glad I did not go through ending it all.

      That thought that you never asked to born is a true one but perhaps the existence in you before you were born wanted the chance to be on this earth, listen to the quiet voice in yourself and not the loud one that can’t handle it anymore.

    • Anonymous says:

      What are you afraid of? Death is your end, so make a list of everything that scares you and do them. Then, decide, was it that scary?

    • Anonymous says:

      As someone who feels the same way, I must ask the question…what do you want out of this life? Sitting back and waiting for it will fail. If you don’t fear death, than why fear life? It’s all you have. Your life is all you have so why fear anything? Certainly, death is worse than anything you want. Right? Fuckem. Be who you are.

  239. Tom Hal says:

    I’ve been reading these comments (thanks to the auto-inform function) every few days since this is one of the most important modern (would be) rights battles to me. I want to respond to and encourage–is that the right word?–everyone posting here so much of their searing truth. But I don’t, out of fearing to offend. If only policy makers would listen to the perspectives, feelings, experiences of millions of adults begging for a medically competent and humane exit from life. As others here and elsewhere put it, it’s irrational at once to make life difficult (especially for those who already cannot manage life’s stresses), and at the same time to forbid those who want out to leave.

    If you cannot care for people, and you argue the system cannot be made gentler, then minimally allow those who cannot play your game the freedom to leave the room.

    • Joan Of Arc says:

      I feel like in the end the decisions are ours.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Joan, I agree with you, that the decision is ours, despite what “the authorities” say. Those experienced enough with the mental health system know–or quickly learn–that if they are serious about leaving the last thing they should do is announce it, as the system is empowered to incarcerate those who set in motion their departure.

      But without professional, near-certain means available, the results of the decision are far too often extremely painful. The last thing someone who’s overwhelmed with a lifetime of pain needs on making a decision to leave is to suffer while leaving–or worse, to suffer and then not even succeed in leaving.

  240. Cynthia says:

    Being a chronically ill person that has died and been brought back 5 times, i feel it is up to the person to choose to continue to suffer and to just be allowed to say i have had enough. I had dnr orders in place and they still went against me. Have a heart, this is not living it is merely surviving amoung the living. Waiting for the end, but it seems to take its time….Legalize assisted suicide in all states

  241. Dg says:

    Everyone should have a choice healthy or dying, and there should be institutions helping to die. Life with severe depression is so unbearable, I pray every night so I could die asleep. It is not temporary I’ve been this way all my life and I have enough.

  242. Linda says:

    This is not by any means an end of life situation… a person paralyzed trapped in their own brain, inability to express any wishes or desires !

  243. Anonymous says:

    Well people want to die because them might be having problems with there family or friends and no one cares about them

    • Anonymous says:

      What if nobody cares? Not one person cares? Does that mean no one will? If you are my age, no one will. Or maybe, you haven’t made the effort to find your world. Or maybe you have. Maybe, there is something in this life that makes you happy. Focus on that and a brand new world opens up to you.

    • Sandra says:

      thats right like me

  244. Paul says:

    I do not think that suicides should always be prevented, but on the other hand.

    There are those that would not be even thinking of suicide if our systems worked properly in the first place.

    We have people that due to lack of money and regulations suicide is basically their only option, and I see this as terribly wrong.

    We as a society should not be pushing people to the point that they basically have no other option.

    Those people should be stopped, only if we are going to hold those accountable that pushed them to that point in the first place.

    Due to the corruption that we have in this country I really do not see that happening anytime soon unfortunately.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Paul, are you a US citizen? I ask because, otherwise, the postage might be quite expensive to mail to you your gold star. Terrific comment, mate.

    • Paul says:

      Tom, I live in southern california. I have seen Kaiser nearly kill me, my wife and a number of my friends due to refusal to do simple tests. Also I am in pain much of the time because we live in a society that thinks that using pain killers make people high. The only high that I and most that I know have ever had is a brief relief from pain that is much like being on fire electrocuted and drawn and quartered. Of course people are happy they feel like they did before they were injured.
      What I personally do not get is the live at all costs mentality. There are many things that are far worse than death, such as pain 24/7 being burned alive. Or as many of us would say in constant pain. Pain so much that we no longer enjoy the taste of food, no longer get really any more pleasure from sex than just holding someone close. This is a cruel world only made more so by control freaks that are more worried about the possibility that someone might get a buzz from a medication or potentally abuse it, than take into account that without such medications life really has no enjoyment. I quit worrying about possible health problems, the possibility of heart or stroke. Also in a way look forward to the possibility of a full on nuclear war, as my pain and suffering and that of others will be gone along with those that get enjoyment by having us live in pain each and every day. I in no way have any ill feelings towards myself, but if a God was coming that was going to wipe out most of mankind as in the great flood I would say that he would be right for doing so as it is just as wrong to let people harm innocents as it is to do it yourself. We as a species have the ability and have shown to be the most destructive and cruel of all the animals on this planet. However there are exceptions, some strive to be better, and some even strive to be Ubermen that look to make the world better for all, but unfortunately they are a minority.

    • Paul says:

      What gets me down is back pain that hurts worse than a 3rd degree burn. Getting medication to get the pain down is very difficult due to the CDC saying that opiates don’t help chronic pain. Also reclassification of hydrocodone. In addition morphine does not help a whole lot.

      It is because of the level of pain and the great difficulty of getting any doctor these days to prescribe pain medication so I can function that I have been thinking of suicide. It is very sad that I have been forced to the point of thinking about suicide because of laws being more important than my life. I love myself and my family, but when I have the franchise tax board and others after me because I am hurting so much most of the time that I am unable to fill out basic paperwork that should be a breeze to anyone with the legal, science and engineering education I have. Most of the time I am unable to figure out how to send people bills. This is insane that I have to live with such debilitating pain. My family and many others are worried about me. However it is illegal for me to make what I need to function and difficult to get doctors to help me. Death is the easiest solution, but it will do the most harm. However that looks to be the final result as I just can’t take care of myself as I should be able to do so because it has been made illegal for me to do so.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Paul, I’m sorry I’m only now replying to your comments. First, and most importantly, I’m terribly sorry for your pain. I get what you’re saying. Living with chronic pain can evaporate all pleasures. And those who are not living with chronic, extreme pain cannot fathom what you’re going through. Yet they tell you how you should live your life–what you should find bearable. Reprehensible.

      And you’re also right that our concern for addiction, legally and medically, has created a culture hostile to those living with chronic pain. Together with the corruption of insurance companies, the challenge of enduring worsening pain through the decades for many is just insurmountable.

      Maybe worst of all, eventually those who are NOT living with chronic pain (may) choose to abandon those who are. They call it self-preservation. Funny how we’re free to abandon people, but still, those whom we’ve abandoned we refuse to allow to exit life.

      Again, I’m terribly, terribly sorry you’re in pain. I wish I could take it away.

  245. kws says:

    some of us have unsolvable problems. mine is the death of my spouse. how will continuing to live ever solve that? how is that a “temporary problem”? why should the rest of my life be an unending series of coping mechanisms, no true happiness, just to make everyone around me feel comfortable? living for others is not a life, it is living death.

    • Joan Of Arc says:

      The answers are all your own. I will not pretend to understand your pain, but I do know pain. No one can justify the date you choose to exit this world, that is all on you. I say that because in this life I feel like we’re not in control of anything in this world, but I’d be a fool to give someone jurisdiction over whether I choose to live or die.

  246. X says:

    I used to think that I lived a charmed life. Happy childhood and all that. When I really look back on it, it was tough. Lots of issues in the family. Abuse, instability of all kinds. I guess I just got good at blocking it all out. Just to get along. In the past couple of years I’ve been through a divorce after a 20 plus year marriage and all that comes with that. Loss of two houses, job loss, bankruptcy, homelessness, though with help I’ve managed to stay off the streets. For now, anyway. Been pretty bad. I have no contact with a step daughter I helped raise for all that time. Heard she just got married. I wasn’t notified. For the best I’m sure. Still, it hurts. Don’t know what I did that was so bad but life ain’t fair bla, bla, bla. People are so critical and judgmental, especially in my family. It always hurt. I never judged suicides. I get it, especially now. The marriage was very difficult and I’ve thought about suicide many times. Life was very hard as a teen and I thought about it alot back then and since. I think that if a person wants to end their life for whatever reason they should be able to do so with dignity and as little pain as possible. They’ve had enough of all that. For now, I just wish I wasn’t here. I feel like I’ve done what I’m here to do. I just want to leave. Not a FU to anyone or anything. I’m just really tired and very disappointed with life. Just very weary of it all.

    • Sune says:

      I sympathize with you. I am very tired and sick of this life. I have felt this way for over 20 years now. There’s nothing more I’m interested in experiencing, as most things and people have just caused me pain anyway.

      I have no fear of death, and have attempted years ago, but was unfortunately saved. The only thing keeping me here now is the pure agony the attempt put my dad through. I don’t want to cause him pain.

      But I’m just so..done. I feel like I’m just hanging on for other people’s happiness, wearing a mask.

  247. Ddp says:

    I truly believe that if an individual who is contemplating suicide confides in someone enough to tell them…well, I don’t think they will actually commit suicide. Instead, it’s a last ditch effort and a cry for help. Most people who finish the deed don’t say anything and most of the time, friends & family have no idea how bad things really are. Suicide is not a cowardly, selfish or selfless act, but a relief. A relief, no more pain, agony, misery or suffering. Unless, you have been in a similar situation or dealt with severe or major depression it’s difficult to relate or understand for that matter. You have no idea what the other person was feeling, what they dealt with on a regular basis or the struggles they endured. The ones who expect someone to live in so much pain & misery are the ones who are being selfish!

    • Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW says:

      This is beautifully said. I do want to make one correction, though. Research studies have found that most people who die by suicide did communicate their wishes to someone else (often more than one “someone else”) before doing so, usually a friend or family member. I add this information only so that people will not minimize the risk if someone they know discloses a wish to die by suicide. Telling others does not mean the person is not truly in danger of ending their life.

    • Heber says:

      Finally someone who speaks the truth. Thanks so much for that please post everywhere.

  248. Anonymous says:

    No they should not be stopped if a person has been thinking of suicide for ages. If it is something maybe for a year or so then they should be stopped

  249. Heber says:

    If there is a possibility of getting better then yeah but after years of suffering then why put people through what you wouldn’t put a animal through. Have a heart.

  250. No says:

    Yeah as females we are told we are equals until the ex absolves all responsibility then we have to walk into a life that works for a female & maintains their previous earning capacity. Guess what!!!!!? There’s no equality do what you can

  251. Lewis E says:

    It’s strange when you sincerely give thought to ending your own life. Personally I have a rather logical method of thinking. It can be both a boon or a hinderance.

    I’ve been playing with the thought of cutting ties for around eight years. I’m 24 years old, average Job, decent education and a caring family. I’ve never had a real interest in starting a relationship with someone. My sex live is non-existent and my sexual drive even more so.

    Many will sit and list off their reasons for ending it all, and many others will try to categorise these individuals. Giving them a “label” so to speak. I.e. Depressed or mentally unstable etc. In my own opinion, these labels exist to make the sheer thought of suicide acceptable to others. “If we can categorise it, we can try to medicate it; understand it.”

    Well, if I may I’ll share something I stumbled across when I was much younger.

    Growing up, I was always taught to think ahead. See plan your road ahead before flying blind. This, I now know and see as mental conditioning. I was conditioned in such a way as to always worry. Worry about bills, who may be a friend who may not. Worry about if I’ll grow old alone, or if I got the perfect grade on my exams. Think of the future and worry your ass off thinking about everything that could go wrong. This way if I’ll do everything in my power to stay on the right path always worrying always concerned about what may lie ahead.

    I can confidently say I’m not depressed, I have no real gripes with who I am as a person and I couldn’t care less what anyone else may think of me.

    I weigh 310lbs, and spend most of my time either working, or listening / playing music.

    However, I’ve always thought to myself, why?

    Why work when I don’t care about money? Why socialise if I don’t care what others think? Why eat healthy if I don’t really fear death? Why excersize if I don’t fear about my phisique?

    Why?

    And there isn’t an answer, many will try to justify it by saying, what about your family? Or what about your dreams or ambitions? Or some will even say you’ll eventually find a way to cope.

    What if there was someone out there like myself that didn’t see the point in existing? People thrive by defining goals. Oh’ I’ll buy my house when I’m 27, or I’ll get married by 30. What if someone didn’t see the point in defining goals. Ultimately we all end up in the ground anyway? Right?

    And yes some can say, “it’s all about the experience of life…” what experience?

    From what I gather a nine to five job, juggling what people think of you and trying to keep up with the trends of today are all superficial? What’s the point? It always equals the same result.

    I can’t comment for most but I don’t fear death. I really don’t, I fear what may be after it. But only because I don’t know what that is.

    I’m not religious, I have no thoughts on the supernatural ongoings; or even a belief in reincarnation. But I still don’t know.

    Ultimately what I’m trying to say is, I want to cut ties. I know how to and I’m not afraid of the process. However it’s not because I’m depressed or mentally ill, lonely or for any other reasons you might think.

    I just wanna quit. I’f I were to try to explain it really simply, it’s kinda like exiting a game. You quit because your bored. I guess you could call it that. Boredom. I’m bored of this life and the sorry excuse for existence people call living. So why continue.

    If I’m alive 60 years from now, I’ll still be thinking the same way. The only difference would be that I would be thinking, what was the point in that?

    Ultimately I guess I’m frustrated with how people always categorise suicide. Oh he had depression, or she was clinically mental. What about the guy that just wants to quit simply because he can.

    • Puck says:

      Louis, your words do reflect life. They go along with many of the great thinkers and philosophers in recorded history. In fact Monty Python did a movie about it called the meaning of life. A few other things that you may find interesting one is The God Delusion, and another is by Peter Gilmore his book on Satanism. You may find some meaning in Modern Satanism. As you said no fear of death, not sure if there is even anything after life.

      Something that most do not get (mainly the Faithful) is why go on when you have nothing really good to look forward to in life. If life is nothing but suffering no pleasures. It is not really life, but purely just existence. For life there needs to be balance. Even Buddha said life is suffering, but when existence is only suffering and pain with pain more and more each day. One has to be into enjoying harm coming to them to go on. One should not live to the point that they are suffering to the point of writing on the walls with bodily fluids etc. In other words why cause yourself suffering to the point where it causes insanity.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Bravo!

    • DeezNutz says:

      I’m in the same boat….in going on 28
      ..
      I first realized I wanted to die when I was may be 3 4 or 5 years old…all this time later….I’m the selfish one that needs to get help?….as I tell everyone that gets sad about a death “you couldn’t be so lucky”

    • RaIn says:

      Seriously Lewis.. When people say:” You just took the words out of my mouth ” Well. This is one of the those cases, This was spot on EXACTLY what i’m thinking about life. It was honestly a little bit scary to read, because it was just like my words that i’ve said to others for the last 2-3 years. The only part that differs is that i’ve thought that i have suffered from depression.

      But is it really depression?

      I have no desire in the world anymore, and i’m not interested in any job working from 8-5 everyday and come home to dinner. I’m not interested in socializing with people going on trips long away having “fun”. I don’t want any new experiences, because i simply do not enjoy it. It feels like i’m just an old soul who’s tired of life in general and just wants peace and nothing. And i’ve felt this way since i was 12-13 years old. Now i’m 24.

      The one thing that scares me though from exiting this game, is what i fear is gonna come after it. Like what the hell happens? That scares me a lot.

      I’m glad i read on this site and found you Lewis, it was such a relief that someone else share the same thoughts about life as i do.

      Therapists doesn’t understand me, or refuse to. They don’t wanna see the truth behind someone’s life. People can call you crazy for saying stuff like that, but you know what i think? I think it’s just more awareness. You are more aware then other people. You think a lot deeper, and you need something more. Doing this superficial things isn’t enough for you. You need something that gives you an emotion. Like music for example. That’s the only thing to me that gives me a real emotion and i actually can be happy,when i listen to it. Or if i watch a FANTASTIC movie. It’s sad that it has ended up like this, and i wish i could just enjoy life as my friends do. Without any worries and just have fun. But it’s not that easy for me. I’m on another level..

    • Brent F. says:

      It especially maddening for myself in the boredom department in that problems other people have that they bring on themselves I find no problem avoiding. Don’t have sex, don’t do recreational drugs, don’t get married, avoid working too hard….this is so trivially boring and predictable…it’s not a challenge…. If this was the biblical times my arm would be so tired throwing the first stone. Being a total vacuum of sin has it’s perks…but why is everyone else having so much trouble…Boooorring!

  252. Heatre says:

    I have high functioning autism, bpd depression and anxiety. I have lived with it all my life and am so tired of it. I think people should have the same right to die as they do to live. I have no quality of life, spend all day alone in bedroom with no social contact except my once a month to check if I am dead yet. Let the severely mentally ill die if they choose to.

  253. Anonymous says:

    I think having major depression, anxiety and severe OCD which cannot be cured the person should be allowed to die with no quality of life.

  254. abcd says:

    suicide is very personal and i think only the suicidal person’s opinion is valid. i think suicide should be legal (it is laughable that it is and had been illegal in so many places) and access to safe and humane suicide should be legal.

    • Tom Hal says:

      “suicide is very personal and i think only the suicidal person’s opinion is valid.”

      If our species survives ourselves, in the distant future humans will look back on this assertion as self-evident. It’s a profound commentary on how fallible we are that an entire professional discipline has evolved in direct opposition to this concept, and worse, has coerced the law to deprive us of the freedom to exit life–the same law that enables structures, like different classes of discrimination, refusal to uphold laws enacted to protect the elderly, the infirm, and the disempowered, legal representation far outside the reach of most in cost, financial depredation on the poor…, which make life so detestable for many who then seriously contemplate leaving life.

  255. john says:

    I believe that if a person’s life is truly miserable, physician-assisted suicide should be legal. There is no point in living if you’re just going to be miserable. Why take anti-depressants or painkillers because those are just a temporary solution to a possibly permanent problem?

    • Tom Hal says:

      “(Treatment is) a temporary solution to a (possibly) permanent problem.” Very nice way to turn a hackneyed, vacuous statement on its head. (“Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.”) Just as treatment only sometimes works (and often doesn’t), life problems are sometimes permanent.

    • Brent F. says:

      These pharmaceutical companies do not create cures. They create CUSTOMERS. In a fire house somewhere there is a light bulb that has been burning since 1903 with almost a million hours on it. Making such a light bulb is no way to sell light bulbs. If they made a cure for being a child-killing maniac they would not be able to sell pills that fight the global warming of their mind with central air-conditioning. It’s the old spear and shield paradox. Humans have the ability to make their world wonderful and far more wealthy than it is now, however we choose the local optimum.

  256. Anonymous says:

    I have combat-related PTSD, and am completely unresponsive to medication and therapy. Since I have to live with it for the rest of my natural life, and since my self-destructive behavior and extreme loneliness show no signs of abating, suicide seems like a good solution to end this suffering.

  257. Mrsomeone says:

    Fuck life, they say life is a gift but just look how damn miserable things are, wish i never come to this stupid world, been bullied by my father over years, been bullied by my familly as well, been bullied at school to the point i was damn afraid to go there, have no friends, have no girlfriend, no money, all alone, despite all i used to enjoy a lot of things like music, girls, going to church, learning new thing, computers, videogames etc… but dude, now im so messed up that i dont even give a heck about anything, even porn, and now i hear that bullshit that if you suicide you go to hell, what the hell, life is already a mess

    • Puck says:

      Makes one think about if God is really good and letting such things happen, the devil must be the good guy. Much as in the book 1984 where peace is war. Love is hate. Etc.

    • nunya says:

      I feel you, im all alone. no one to help me. grew up dirt poor, less than a thousand a month. dad died when i was two. no family. always getting screwed with. why bother. why suffer. ill have to break the law to get any real money then ill go to prison. whats the point.

  258. Anonymous says:

    When I finally get the courage to end it I don’t want to be stopped.

    • Puck says:

      This is one reason that one should not talk to any doctor about this. They will only be interested in stopping you, and have no interest in resolving the problems that make you feel that way in the first place.

      One such thing for me is Chronic Pain, and getting medication for it is insanely difficult.

      Why are doctors, and other heath care people along with law enforcement and many others more concerned about drug abuse, and possibility of addiction than people being so miserable in pain that death is more of a Godsend than just an end to ones life.

      Fact of the matter when a doctor says that they are worried about your safety, they are actually saying that they are more worried about possible legal action against them than your life or the lives of your family members left behind.

      Do not believe for one moment that your elected officials will do anything to solve this, as they are only interested in control

  259. Robert w says:

    I have leukemia;a horrible cancer. I have a wife that is a pathological liar. She lies especially for money. She steals things from me, the house, etc to sell to get money for I don’t know why. I’m tired of trying to live with my 48 years of grand mal epilepsy, heart surgeries, and now cancer that can manifest itself itself in wherever and whenever it wants. I’m tired and just want to get out of the stress. pray that I will Very, Very soon! I’m 61 and tired and fed up with fighting. Hopefully I won’t live to be 62.

  260. Heather K says:

    NO, I do not. Life is hell. If you haven’t been in this person’s situation do not judge them. I am. I have demons, killing me slowly at their own will. I have two sons grown and living their own lives. My parents are gone. My siblings are either passed or have their own families they love and celebrate with. I have one “friend” who really has her own family and life to continue on I have my dog who is growing old having her own problems, seizures, strokes etc. When she is gone I am alone. I am miserable in life. I do not have a significant other. And My future does not look bright and hopeful.. When you have someone who feels like this, why would you deny them something who could bring them peace? Life is not happy. Life is hard, life is miserable, life is heartbreaking, life is painful!!! I have lived my life through my children who have been EVERYTHING to me!!! And now they are grown and living their lives. I am a burden to everyone who knows and knew me. I WiSH I had to courage to take my own life!! Why can’t I?? I pray and wish every damn day for someone to hit me head on, something that happens to others, don’t take them, take me!!! I want to go. I don’t want to stay in this hell that I live in. yes, others are worse off than me. I am struggling with depression, bipolar, anxiety! PLEASE, PLEASE take me! I wish, I beg, I pray that this will end! If those that are struggling with severe mental issues can’t get out, isn’t there some way to help them???? Medications only do so much!!! Therapy only does so much!!! PLEASE tell me, PLEASE I beg of someone to please get me out of this hell.

    • Tom Hal says:

      Thanks for sharing so honestly with the rest of us. I think a lot of people around the world feel as you do, but they’re frightened to be open about their feelings. You notice that most of those who forbid others to take their own lives and who block all attempts to legalize euthanasia (of humans) are also those who advocate self-reliance, taking care of yourself, in a world even they admit is extremely competitive. They won’t give people jobs who desperately need them. They won’t provide housing and other survival resources that quality-of-life is intrinsically linked to. And they are so busy with their own lives that they won’t be there to keep us company through the long, hard night. No, they tell us, instead, we have GOT to find ways to entertain ourselves, to care for ourselves–as if merely saying “got to” translates into viable ways to do so. You’d think that, so fed up with the incompetence of those who can’t or won’t adapt to the world the successfully acclimated have created, the anti-suicide pundits would be happy to be rid of the social burdens who will never conform or become what is expected of them.

    • Joan Of Arc says:

      I feel exactly the same as you, except for the fact that I have no human kids. I have a dog and a cat and they are my world. If anything were to happen to them that will be my ticket out of this fucked up vortex called life. I say the same things as you do. I wish I had a loving parent like you. I’m 30 years old and feel like this life was given to me as a torture mechanism. Everything consist of slaving from 9 to 5, pay bills, eat, pay more bills and stress about my upcoming doom. Reading what you’ve typed is hurting me in many ways. I feel like I’ve known you for years. I wish that I can let you know that you are needed and loved by so many including me. Know that you’ve done your best, you gave your kids an amazing foundation to build on, loving arms to run to when needed. I love you and I hear you.

    • Puck says:

      Have you ever thought of selling everything you can, dispose of the rest. Then move to another country?

  261. Dee says:

    I believe that assisted suicide is good in some cases. We live in a society that is fast paced and leaves little empathy for people that are living with daily excruciating pain. Pain medication helps but it also leaves one with a feeling of numbness. When you can no longer partake in life, all you do is stay in bed because you are too weak to get up. I believe it is a welcoming end to allow you to move on into a peaceful afterlife.

  262. KK says:

    I have been constantly making mistakes in school, work, and life for the past 34 years. I live in constant anguish, despair and severe mental pain. I nearly always feel as if my stomach is full of writhing snakes. No matter how hard I try I screw up in ways that often have a huge negative impact and look incredibly foolish. People ridicule then avoid me. I switch jobs every couple of yea